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clark

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Reply with quote  #16 
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Originally Posted by royalcello
Baron I sort of wish you were in the Facebook discussion on this subject on Cyril Koob's page today, of which I've gotten weary.  But perhaps you're glad you're not.  While I'm not as disdainful of James II & VII as you are, I do get frustrated with the way some (not all!) English-speaking Roman Catholic monarchists seem to be more aggrieved by 1688 than by 1776, 1789 or 1917...


I highly doubt that Mr. Koob is more aggrieved by 1688 then by 1789, but that is just my guess.

Personally I find all those dates repulsive, and would have included 1649 as well.
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #17 
Actually it wasn't so much Mr Koob himself as a couple of his friends I was thinking of.  The sort who seem to be much more bothered by the British monarchy being Protestant than by other countries no longer having monarchies at all.  I will never sympathize with that sort of sectarianism and am proud to support monarchies of all religions.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #18 
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Originally Posted by clark
Personally I find all those dates repulsive, and would have included 1649 as well.


As stated above and elsewhere, the Glorious Revolution was effectively a settlement or compromise after the ideological conflicts of the previous half a century. At that time, only Poland and Sweden had monarchies restricted by their constitutions Modern constitutional monarchies that emerged after 1789 represent a similar compromise between the ancien regime and enlightenment liberal principles, although Napoleon had attempted such a compromise himself.

The American Revolution represented the birth of a new nation and was a radical expression of Whiggery, but it wasn't (in my opinion) anything like comparable to later revolutions in its negative consequences despite it being wholly unjustified, treasonous and hypocritical, as it did not lead to the sort of terrorism and attempt to create a utopia like. Undoubtedly, some radical Whigs in both Britain (like Charles James Fox, even though he wasn't a republican and later retreated from his initial applause when it was obvious what was happening) and America (like Thomas Jefferson) cheered the French Revolution, there were more sensible moderate and conservative voices in both countries (the more reasonable among the Founders, for instance) who expressed rightful horror and disgust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
Actually it wasn't so much Mr Koob himself as a couple of his friends I was thinking of.  The sort who seem to be much more bothered by the British monarchy being Protestant than by other countries no longer having monarchies at all.  I will never sympathize with that sort of sectarianism and am proud to support monarchies of all religions.


Seconded. The fringe Trad Catholics who proclaim themselves royalists, even write articles exalting monarchy while showing disdain for the British monarchy, which is absurd and (since the late 18th century at the earliest, if ever) utterly incoherent.
clark

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Reply with quote  #19 
I will agree with you on that of course. While I wold love for all to be united to the Catholic Church, rejection of a soveriegn soley because they are not Catholic is completely against the teachings of Paul and the early Church.

Personally if I were around in 1688 and the early 1700s I'd have supported the Jacobite cause. But I think the cause was a dead one after Henry Stuart chose the life of a Prince of the Church rather than to seek to reclaim his throne. Perhaps this does not follow any legit law of succession, but it seems if a man chooses the clerical life then he in some way gives up him claim to whatever secular throne he may have held. Today I can imagne no others than the current Queen and her family on the throne of the United Kingdom.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #20 
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Originally Posted by DavidV

The American Revolution represented the birth of a new nation and was a radical expression of Whiggery, but it wasn't (in my opinion) anything like comparable to later revolutions in its negative consequences despite it being wholly unjustified, treasonous and hypocritical, as it did not lead to the sort of terrorism....

True, it wasn't as all encompassing, but tarring and feathering a man and the setting him afire for his loyalty to his King sounds pretty terroristic to me. You should read Maya Jasanoff's Liberty's Exiles.

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #21 
Oh absolutely. The Tory cause of the period deserves more attention, not just the military aspect but also the ideological aspect. All American politics today, even its most conservative (paleoconservative and libertarian) strains, traces back to the Whigs. If anything, the trend since the 1780s has been for constitutions- be they monarchical or republican- to be venerated and inspire a quasi-mythology behind them.
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