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azadi

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I'm sick and tired of Christians and monarchists being anti-Zionists. The State of Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East (except the KRG), it grants its citizens freedom of religion and it's the most progressive country in the Middle East concerning gay rights. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan bans conversion from Islam to Christianity or Judaism. A lot of Israeli citizens are Arabs. All Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights regardless of race, ethnicity or religious affiliation.
A gay pride parade in Tel Aviv:
1964467127.jpg 


MatthewJTaylor

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I must say, whilst I'm not particularly Zionist, I do support continued Israeli rule over the Holy Land for now.
Nonetheless, showing me their Gay Pride marches doens't exactly help the Israeli case for me.

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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
I must say, whilst I'm not particularly Zionist, I do support continued Israeli rule over the Holy Land for now.
Nonetheless, showing me their Gay Pride marches doens't exactly help the Israeli case for me.

I don't support gay marriage, but I'm opposed to persecution of gays. Criminalizing homosexuality is wrong, because homosexuality harms nobody. I'm opposed to gay marriage, because I support the traditional family, not because I hate gays. Gays are persecuted in most Middle Eastern countries. Gays are hanged in the Islamic Republic of Iran. That's utterly wrong.
I want the Temple Mount and the Old City of Jerusalem to remain under Israeli sovereignty, because Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and the Temple Mount is the holiest place in Judaism, but I support removing the Jewish settlements from the West Bank. I support perpetual Israeli military occupation of the West Bank, because a fully independent Palestinian state in the West Bank will be a grave threat to the security of Israel.
Windemere

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Actually, Azadi, gay people have always  had traditional families, too, since time immemorial. It's only recently that they've become public news. I think that perhaps you're equating traditional families with the nuclear family, which has only been the standard version of the family since about  the Twentieth Century. 
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azadi

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Britain has finally apologized for limiting Jewish immigration to Israel during the Nazi era:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/29/pm-tells-corbyn-dont-be-so-negative-about-middle-east-peace-plan

Peter

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There is no suggestion of any such apology anywhere in the linked article.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Peter
There is no suggestion of any such apology anywhere in the linked article.

Britain has apologized for limiting Jewish immigration to Israel during the Nazi era by supporting the Trump peace plan. I once said on this forum that Britain ought to recognize East Jerusalem as Israeli territory, because it limited Jewish immigration to Israel during the Nazi era. Israel will be allowed to keep the Old City of Jerusalem according to the Trump peace plan.
Peter

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Nonsense. The Prime Minister is supporting this latest peace plan not because he thinks it has the remotest chance of succeeding (which it doesn't even deserve to have, if peace could be achieved by giving Israel everything it wants on a platter the conflict would have been over long ago) but as a diplomatic gesture towards Trump, whose ego always needs massaging and who could if tickled the right way be very helpful to Britain. He has no thought in his head of events that happened more than 70 years ago.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Nonsense. The Prime Minister is supporting this latest peace plan not because he thinks it has the remotest chance of succeeding (which it doesn't even deserve to have, if peace could be achieved by giving Israel everything it wants on a platter the conflict would have been over long ago) but as a diplomatic gesture towards Trump, whose ego always needs massaging and who could if tickled the right way be very helpful to Britain. He has no thought in his head of events that happened more than 70 years ago.

I like the Trump peace plan, because it establishes a sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank, while allowing Israel to keep the Temple Mount and the Old City of Jerusalem. 
VivatReginaScottorum

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You know, it's possible to be critical of Israel and Zionist ideology without wishing to wipe the former off of the map. It's nice that Israel is more democratic and liberal than it's Arab neighbours but that does not entitle it to get away with anything.
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AaronTraas

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Azadi, why do you continuously reply to people, quote their entire post, and then respond do none of the things they say, instead stating a list of things you want? It makes no blasted sense, and makes you come across as a raving lunatic.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatReginaScottorum
You know, it's possible to be critical of Israel and Zionist ideology without wishing to wipe the former off of the map. It's nice that Israel is more democratic and liberal than it's Arab neighbours but that does not entitle it to get away with anything.

I have never claimed that criticizing Israel is wrong. I support establishing a sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and I support removing most of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank. But demanding that Israel cedes the Temple Mount and the Old City of Jerusalem to a Palestinian state is unreasonable, because Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism, while Jerusalem is outranked by Mecca and Medina in Islam.
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Reply with quote  #13 
With all due respect to Peter, the obstacles to peace reside almost exclusively on the Palestinian side. They have been offered almost all they have desired a number of times but have always balked at accepting peace. This is because they just don't want to recognise Israel's right to exist, and because even if the PLO leadership were willing to concede to peace on such terms, they fear being lynched by their own people for coming to terms with the hated enemy. It's utterly useless to negotiate with Hamas. If the Palestinians had been sensible and accepted the sensible, just deals offered them, they'd have a state by now and could be flourishing.

The Trump peace plan is actually quite sensible. It just begins by recognising inevitabilities. Israel is never going to give up the old city of Jerusalem, and nor should it; land swaps will have to happen, as the 1967 borders are indefensible; and so on. It won't succeed, but that will again be because the Palestinians won't accept any peace plan short of wiping Israel off the map.

One can make legitimate criticisms of Israel and not be anti-semitic. That said, a lot of criticism in the Western media and masses is so wide of the mark that it does leave one scratching one's head. It is disproportionate, out of context, and often just plain wrong. Israel defending itself from unprovoked attacks and doing it's best to avoid civilian casualties - within the context of not allowing indiscriminate rocket fire to rain down on its cities - suddenly becomes Israel attacking civilians. Hamas propaganda is repeated as fact, sometimes deliberately, sometimes because journalists can't get access to Gaza without repeating it.
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