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azadi

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Reply with quote  #16 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Actually, there's no need to have a common enemy per se to have close geopolitical bonds. That's just an arbitrary qualification you have inserted. But Russia is a rival to both the EU nations and the US. That doesn't mean it's a threat like in the Cold War, but it is opportunistic. In fact, it is more of a rival to the EU, especially the nations of central Europe, such as Germany and Poland. Putin will push until he senses proper resistance. These gain from their links to the US. So far they've been pretty poor on organising themselves in foreign policy and security terms without the US. There's no reason for them to suddenly draw away from the US. There's unlikely to be a full-scale war between Russia and the US, precisely because Putin's Russia isn't the Soviets and is a simply opportunistic. It would lose such a war. If there were such a war, other nations, like the Europeans, should respond based on the circumstances.

According to opinion polls, the majority of Germans wants improved relations with Russia. Bismarck maintained friendly relations with Russia, and Weimar Germany maintained friendly relations with Soviet Russia. Germany and France currently pursue rapprochement with Russia, while the US Congress and the British government remain hostile to Russia. Germany and France are willing to lift the sanctions against Russia, if Russia allows Ukraine to reassert sovereignty over Donetsk and Lugansk. Germany and France will lift the sanctions against Russia, despite Russia keeping Crimea.
Closer European military integration will make the EU capable of defending itself.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #17 
We're not talking about the days of Bismarck. Relations are never going to be exactly friendly with Putin's Russia. I would support not treating it like the Soviets, but a certain wariness will always be necessary.

Military integration in the EU is not detachable from the general EU integrative project. It is part of creating an ever closer union. Besides, the European powers, despite the genuine desire of many Eurocrats and leaders to forge closer links in this regard, have, as so often is the case, been let down by differing visions and interests. It will take an awful lot of effort for the EU to change the woeful record of EU and the major continental powers, both in working for a common foreign policy and in contributing to a proper military readiness. Look at its record on the former Yugoslavia or its divisions on Iraq. Look at the constant need for the Americans to needle the European NATO members to maintain proper levels of defence spending.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
We're not talking about the days of Bismarck. Relations are never going to be exactly friendly with Putin's Russia. I would support not treating it like the Soviets, but a certain wariness will always be necessary.

Military integration in the EU is not detachable from the general EU integrative project. It is part of creating an ever closer union. Besides, the European powers, despite the genuine desire of many Eurocrats and leaders to forge closer links in this regard, have, as so often is the case, been let down by differing visions and interests. It will take an awful lot of effort for the EU to change the woeful record of EU and the major continental powers, both in working for a common foreign policy and in contributing to a proper military readiness. Look at its record on the former Yugoslavia or its divisions on Iraq. Look at the constant need for the Americans to needle the European NATO members to maintain proper levels of defence spending.

Why do you ignore the fact, that the majority of the Germans actually desire friendly relations with Russia, and Merkel and Macron wants rapprochement with Russia? The EU ought to stand up to American and British Russophobia. The EU has no territorial disputes with Russia, but the EU has territorial disputes with Britain (Gibraltar) and Turkey (Northern Cyprus).
Britain will no longer be able to obstruct European military integration.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #19 
Why do you take random opinion polls as if they were the arbiters of what's right or prudent? This isn't the first time you have done it. What does rapprochement mean, is part of the question. I too support dialing back the rhetoric and action on Russia, but that's a different thing from embracing Putin and Russia as friends and allies. A wariness will be necessary for the foreseeable future. As I have said many times, the exaggerated fear of Russia is one foolish extreme, but that doesn't mean Russia isn't a dubious actor.

Most of your post doesn't directly respond to my points, though it manages to conflate the (in the case of Spain, dubious) claims of one EU member with some sort of EU territorial integrity, as if the EU were already a nation.

Obviously, it is possible that the EU will integrate military in a proper and workable way. That's certainly the goal of the Eurocrats and many EU leaders (you ignored my point about this not being separable from the general integrationist project), but it will take a huge change from the past form to achieve it.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #20 
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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Why do you take random opinion polls as if they were the arbiters of what's right or prudent? This isn't the first time you have done it. What does rapprochement mean, is part of the question. I too support dialing back the rhetoric and action on Russia, but that's a different thing from embracing Putin and Russia as friends and allies. A wariness will be necessary for the foreseeable future. As I have said many times, the exaggerated fear of Russia is one foolish extreme, but that doesn't mean Russia isn't a dubious actor.

Most of your post doesn't directly respond to my points, though it manages to conflate the (in the case of Spain, dubious) claims of one EU member with some sort of EU territorial integrity, as if the EU were already a nation.

Obviously, it is possible that the EU will integrate military in a proper and workable way. That's certainly the goal of the Eurocrats and many EU leaders (you ignored my point about this not being separable from the general integrationist project), but it will take a huge change from the past form to achieve it.

The EU and Russia being allies is unlikely to happen, but the EU will likely improve relations with Russia. The EU will accept Russia keeping Crimea in exchange for Ukraine reasserting sovereignty over Donetsk and Lugansk. The EU will lift its sanctions against Russia. The EU ought to be neutral in a conflict between USA and Russia.  
The EU ought to support the territorial claims of its member states. Spain is a loyal member state of the EU, while Britain will leave the EU on January 31. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #21 
The EU is unlikely to recognise Putin's invasion of Crimea. But some dialing back of tensions would be good.

The EU should tell it's members, loyal or otherwise (are you loyal if you are constantly bribed? Spain is overwhelming a net taker from the EU) to grow up and give up dubious claims. Why on earth would the EU sell out good trading and other relations with an important partner for such idiocy? It would be far better, and more moral, to tell the Spanish to stop acting like children. I hope you aren't back to repeating your oft refuted, nonsensical claims on this issue.

Kurdistan should recognise its eternal subordination to Gibraltar or be be made to!
azadi

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
The EU is unlikely to recognise Putin's invasion of Crimea. But some dialing back of tensions would be good.

The EU should tell it's members, loyal or otherwise (are you loyal if you are constantly bribed? Spain is overwhelming a net taker from the EU) to grow up and give up dubious claims. Why on earth would the EU sell out good trading and other relations with an important partner for such idiocy? It would be far better, and more moral, to tell the Spanish to stop acting like children. I hope you aren't back to repeating your oft refuted, nonsensical claims on this issue.

Kurdistan should recognise its eternal subordination to Gibraltar or be be made to!

The EU will not formally recognize Crimea as Russian territory, but Germany and France are willing to lift sanctions against Russia, despite Russia not ceding Crimea, if Russia allows Ukraine to reassert sovereignty over Donetsk and Lugansk. The EU may designate Crimea as a disputed territory rather than as a Russian-occupied territory.
You may consider the Spanish claim to Gibraltar to be dubious, but the Spanish claim to Gibraltar being dubious doesn't matter to the EU. The EU will always support a member state against states, which aren't member states of the EU. The EU staunchly supported the Republic of Ireland during the Brexit negotiations. The EU will also support the Baltic countries against Russian aggression. Ukraine is fortunately not a member state of the EU. 
https://www.france24.com/en/20190404-europan-parliament-backs-visa-free-travel-brexit-gibraltar

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #23 
That's a rather different issue. The claim they will unreservedly support childish and silly claims by Spain, especially against a NATO member and important trading partner, seems nonsense to me. But it hardly reflects well on the EU if it's true.

Anyway, perhaps it would be in Britain's interest to try to destabilise the EU then? I'm game. A fresh Heath can hardly take us back in if the EU doesn't exist. So it seems doubly a good idea.

EU delenda est!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #24 
Azadi seems to have omitted an EU territorial dispute. An EU country occupies and refuses to relinquish territory integral to and claimed by Morocco, sounds like a dispute to me. The EU country in question is of course Spain.

I think you might have meant EU delenda est. Which I wouldn't particularly agree with, but frankly once we're out I won't be much exercised one way or the other.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #25 
Yes. Darn autocorrect. Depends eat is an interesting one, though. I actually agree about not much caring either way once we leave.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
That's a rather different issue. The claim they will unreservedly support childish and silly claims by Spain, especially against a NATO member and important trading partner, seems nonsense to me. But it hardly reflects well on the EU if it's true.

Anyway, perhaps it would be in Britain's interest to try to destabilise the EU then? I'm game. A fresh Heath can hardly take us back in if the EU doesn't exist. So it seems doubly a good idea.

EU delenda est!

I don't support the EU going to war with Britain over Gibraltar, but the EU ought to support the Spanish claim to Gibraltar diplomatically. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #27 
What should they support a nonsense claim? It doesn't make sense. That doesn't reflect well on them. What it suggests is the EU will support any crap from one of their members.



Now, of course, Britain should support the submission of Kurdistan to Gibraltar. That is the way of things. Kurdistan is Gibraltan forever. Of course, Iraq is now keeping Kurdistan safe for Gibraltar. Long may Iraq reign over Kurdistan! Long may Britain support Iraqi rule over Kurdistan!

Perhaps Britain should also support the return of the Spanish territory in North Africa to Morocco, the independence of Catalonia, the Basque country, and every other part of Spain that wishes independence, the complete banning of Spanish fishing ships from British waters (up to the 200 miles allowed), and other such important actions to chastise Spain into growing up? Heck, perhaps we should just occupy Madrid and subordinate Spain, or what's left of it after we let any part that wants to break away so do, to Gibraltar, as Kurdistan is? That would be poetic justice, not to mention well-deserved. Surely Spain has forfeited the right to govern itself until it grows up.

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