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DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
The EU's creeping totalitarianism is all the more insidious. Overriding national sovereignty and institutions, and the wishes of the people, flies in the face of any concept of democracy.


Who are "the people" here? 

Suppose for a second the British government would do something the majority of the people in the city of London doesn't like. Would that make it undemocratic or totalitarian? Of course not, because Britain is much bigger than just that city. So how can you call the EU totalitarian or undemocratic if it overrides the will of one country (and it hasn't even done that yet, which makes your statement even more absurd. To my knowledge this concerns only a proposal of one of the European institutions, while the other ones have yet to speak).
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #17 
I don't think it's a good idea for British people to allow non-British people to dictate their immigration policy, perhaps against the will of most British people.  You are basically saying that Britain has no say in who is British.   Is being a British subject, which has centuries of tradition and custom, trumped by being a citizen of the EU, which is a recent innovation without a clear line of authority.   Who has the sovereignty in this matter — Britain or the EU?

I'll add that the EU, if it is a sovereign state, is a republic.  

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #18 

"..... I don't see......" The wilfully blind will never see.

One doesn't 'dismiss' the views of those one respects, even if one must act counter to those views.  


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DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #19 
I am not at all saying that Britain has no say in who is British. Britain agreed to the treaty of Lisbon, at which point immigration policies became part of the regular EU legislative process, meaning no more veto powers for individual member states.  But as I said proposals of the Commission have to be agreed by the European Parliament (in which Britain has quite a number of seats) and the Council (in which like 255 of the 345 votes have to agree, which means Britain with its 29 votes can already block a proposal if it forms an alliance with just a few other states). So Britain does have a say, and indeed a very big say. But if like more than 20 of the other member states want something to happen in the field of immigration, then yes, Britain can't veto that. 

I don't really agree with this as far as immigration of non-EU citizens goes. For my part the member states can decide that for themselves and there is no need for intervention of the EU. In that sense I do not support Commission proposals in that direction. But what really blows my mind is a group of reactionary monarchists bashing the EU for being undemocratic (and at the same time saying it is a republic). Uhm, hello?  


Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #20 
I'm not saying the EU is totalitarian, but you can call it undemocratic.  I would also question whether it would always best represent the interests of Britain or any of its member states.  This is an experiment.    Second, most totalitarian states in the 20th and 21st centuries called themselves "republics".   Republics can be very undemocratic.

I just added a few minutes later:

the European Parliament seems like a fig-leaf for democracy.   Britain has traded it's ability to make decisions about fundamental things for 29 votes in a Parliament of 345 votes?  They've been sold out by someone in London.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #21 

'undemocratic republic' - a government of busybodies bound by laws of their own making, no longer responsive to the peoples and institutions which created them.  See also EU.


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DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponocrates
Second, most totalitarian states in the 20th and 21st centuries called themselves "republics".   Republics can be very undemocratic.

the European Parliament seems like a fig-leaf for democracy.   Britain has traded it's ability to make decisions about fundamental things for 29 votes in a Parliament of 345 votes?  They've been sold out by someone in London.



These number I mentioned were about the Council, not the EP. In the Council less than 100 votes is   enough to block something, so 29 is quite a lot. In practice the Council also acts by unanimity whenever possible, seeking compromises. I think you are underestimating the amount of influence national governments, especially the big ones, have in the EU. 

You are right that republics can be undemocratic, but in my eyes you have not explained at all what makes the EU so undemocratic (and this also applies to Baron and especially David, who made the original statement, so I would like to hear their responses too). The general argument you present seems to be that the EU ignores the interests of Britain. What does that say about democracy? Are the interests of all the regions in a political system always looked after in a democracy? 

But perhaps I can also ask the question in a different way: even IF the EU would be an 'undemocratic republic' (a statement whcih I don't agree with), would you support it if it was a 'democratic republic'? If not, I still don't get the criticism.   
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #23 
The UKIP's gains have the "Conservatives" spooked:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2318751/UKIP-clowns-laugh-Anti-Europe-partys-surge-PM-forced-eat-words.html

Farage makes an offer, but really it amounts to the fact the "Conservative" party (and I will say LibDems too) being finished:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2318751/UKIP-clowns-laugh-Anti-Europe-partys-surge-PM-forced-eat-words.html

The UKIP has a golden opportunity. It can be a big tent party to unite all those who oppose the EU, and wish to end the mass immigration and PC madness. Or it can position itself to be a national conservative party in the mould of Fidesz, Law and Justice, National Alliance, etc and forge an alliance with those parties, in strident defence of British values, identity and independence.
House_of_Luxembourg

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Reply with quote  #24 
I loath the EU. I like Nigel Farage, but when he mentions "freedom" & "democracy" in the same sentence I have to admit, I cringe quite a bit, but that's me.
I hope UKIP continues to grow.

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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #25 
Nigel Farage calls left-wing agitators who protested against him in Scotland "fascist scum":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22566183

Oh the irony. What a delicious irony it is! The Left will scream "fascist" at anything they don't like, which includes anyone who criticises immigration and multiculturalism, but they get a taste of their own medicine. And accurate too. Because it's the Left who displays fascistic intolerance of anything they disagree with.
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