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OzLoyalist

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What are your views on Industrial Relations, do you think unions are relevant in today's mobile society? Or are they too inefficient, will guilds make a return?

 

Do you associate Unions with Socialism or Communism, does the Union movement have conservative roots?

? 


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pauljluk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzLoyalist
What are your views on Industrial Relations, do you think unions are relevant in today's mobile society? Or are they too inefficient, will guilds make a return?

If mobility is the issue, you won't be seeing the return of guilds : they were more immobile and inflexible "closed shops" than the unions.

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Do you associate Unions with Socialism or Communism, does the Union movement have conservative roots?

Socialism, social need and an element of conservatism; but although some union members were Communists, Communism wasn't a major driving force, at least in the UK.
EricTheRed

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It is very hard to maintain unions in today's globalized economy. I am not a big fan of them to begin with anyways.

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MonarchistPilot1986

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I am in the middle of the road on unions.

 

I work for UPS and we get a lot of great union benefits. I think UPS has one of the better unions. And wanting to be a pilot, I really do want unions for airlines. Look at what Delta is doing. And it is not much better in much of the airline industry. Unions do a lot for airline employess. Guys, every pilot is NOT pulling 6 figures. Yes, 777 captains are, but there are not A LOT of those out there. Most airlines pay that after many years. Regional airline pilots start out in the 20ks but quickly work up to 30 and 40k. Even if pilots to make a decent living, how would you like to be paying a morgage, car payment, etc based on an 80k year salary, then be told we are cutting you pay to 60k. You might be worried about paying your bills. I think unions are a help in such places as this.

 

However, the trouble lies when certain workers are disiplined but get out of it by going to the union. For example, say an employee steals somthing. The company disiplines him somehow. Maybe they give him another chance, but suspend him. He goes to the union and gets his way. Unions are a place for trouble makers to run. This is why I have some anger towards unions.

 

However, I do not think they are all evil. I just think they are liberal and tend to take up for the trouble makers for that reason--especially minorities. Unions will take up for a minority, not matter WHAT one does, citing racism and other such things.


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InquisitorGeneralis

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Honestly, I have my master's degree in labor relations and I've been a member of a union (AFSCME), so I feel compelled to wheigh in here.  Here are my thoughts on unions:

 

  1. As EricTheRed said, it is difficult to maintain unions in today's economy, especially without a lot of government intervention.
  2. I'm not a fan of how unions are often organized these days, often involving only card checks rather than fair elections.
  3. Although I'm not a fan of the Republicans, I rather harshly object to unions spending so much money getting the Democrats elected.  I don't want one penny of my money going to that party, and many union members don't, either.
  4. Unions don't benefit all low income workers.  That's why they spend so much time railing against so-called "scabs" who are perfectly willing to work at lower rates.  Bad jobs at low wages are better than no jobs at all.
  5. Different unions often have different aims.  For example, a union for steel workers would likely be in favor of steel tariffs, whereas a union for auto workers (an industry that would benefit from cheaper steel) might not.  Also, sometimes those who actually work for unions (such as the clerical staff) try to organize and bring in their own unions, but the unions they work for will react in the same manner as more conventional employers.
  6. Unions are inefficient and are a net loss to economic growth.

Now, with all of the above said, I do think the government should do something to help low income workers (such as the earned-income tax credit), I just don't think it should involve support for unions.


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BaronVonServers

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At one time Guilds were about ensuring the survival of the Craft.
Unions have been about maximizing the safety and income of the Craftsman.

I think Unions are in trouble, but a few with 'Guild like qualities' may well survive.  The Teachers' Union is asking for higher pay, but more than that it is on a campighn to increase the number of teachers (lower class room size, more 'specialezed classes'  etc.  If the UAW spent as much effort on increase sales of Union made cars as they did on getting higher wages, the UAW wouldn't been in the trouble it is now.  With out the Craft, no Craftsmen will have jobs, at any rate-of-pay.



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SupremeDirector

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Unions, like Feminism, outlived its usefullness long ago, and now is nothing more than a hotbed of communism, trying desperatly to destroy capitalism and indoctrinate the youth. Unions should have been outlawed around the 1950s...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupremeDirector
Unions should have been outlawed around the 1950s...
 
Are you a Catholic? If so, I would suggest that you read the Social Encyclicals of our Holy Fathers, from HH Leo XIII, through John-Paul II, in which the right of workers to form Unions is defended as a right under Natural Law!
SupremeDirector

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Yes I am a Catholic. However, if it is not dogma, I am not completly required to follow it. There was a time, such as during the guilded age of America, when it was necessary for them. However, nowadays Unions are full of anti-capitalist commies. The Church is anti-communist too you know. Unions have outlived their usefulness. They are no longer about protecting worker's rights, they are about trying to destroy Capitalism.


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Long Live The King, Long Live Louis XX!

"So pride yourself on what you are, And hold them all to words they can't take back. I've seen a place (it comes) to me in dreams, Where fires die but light still shines for us to see! Would God bless a murder of the innocents? Would God bless a war based on pride? Would God bless a money-hungry government? Noooo! Would God bless our ineffective court system? God bless the sweatshops we run. God bless America? God bless America?" ~Rise Against (Blood Red, White & Blue)
PinoyMonk

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Hello all,

I just figured I'd toss in my own personal comments here (especially 'cause I haven't posted on the forum in ages).  Currently, I have a position as a stocker at a local market, and, being that I live in the state of IL, I am forced to join the union at my place of work, which (in all honesty) frustrates me.  From my understanding, the unions cut a deal with the government to force everyone to join who wants employment at a given unionised place of work.  I'm not sure what that's all about, so I'd be more than happy to read any articles and/or other material others have on this subject.

As to my particular union, I have yet to meet the local union rep.  From what I've been told by my coworkers, she pops her head in once every couple of months, asks how everything is, and runs out the door before anyone has time to respond.  The rumor is also that all of our union dues are put towards dinners out, golfing, etc.  Obviously, I haven't confirmed that stuff.  If even half of it is true, I don't see how these people are getting away with it...

Pinoy Monk


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BaronVonServers

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupremeDirector

Yes I am a Catholic. However, if it is not dogma, I am not completly required to follow it. There was a time, such as during the guilded age of America, when it was necessary for them. However, nowadays Unions are full of anti-capitalist commies. The Church is anti-communist too you know. Unions have outlived their usefulness. They are no longer about protecting worker's rights, they are about trying to destroy Capitalism.



I'm not Catholic, but I don't think the unions should be banned.  Free association and all that...

In my not-so-humble opinion, one shouldn't ban things that have a reasonable basis of good.  Unions can be (and once were) an effective counter-force to greedy businessess.

They current 'crop' of Unions will destroy themsleves as they price their product (Union Labour) out of the market. No need to ban them, just let them continue on their present courses.

Some, more guild-like Unions - like the NEA  - seem to be doing a good job of increasing demand, so that the wages can continue to rise.  They actually increase demand for their services (lower class sizes etc).  However, most are simply becoming victums of thier own greed (like all the other 'run-a-way' capitolists before them).


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SupremeDirector

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupremeDirector

Yes I am a Catholic. However, if it is not dogma, I am not completly required to follow it. There was a time, such as during the guilded age of America, when it was necessary for them. However, nowadays Unions are full of anti-capitalist commies. The Church is anti-communist too you know. Unions have outlived their usefulness. They are no longer about protecting worker's rights, they are about trying to destroy Capitalism.



I'm not Catholic, but I don't think the unions should be banned.  Free association and all that...

In my not-so-humble opinion, one shouldn't ban things that have a reasonable basis of good.  Unions can be (and once were) an effective counter-force to greedy businessess.

They current 'crop' of Unions will destroy themsleves as they price their product (Union Labour) out of the market. No need to ban them, just let them continue on their present courses.

Some, more guild-like Unions - like the NEA  - seem to be doing a good job of increasing demand, so that the wages can continue to rise.  They actually increase demand for their services (lower class sizes etc).  However, most are simply becoming victums of thier own greed (like all the other 'run-a-way' capitolists before them).

Just because something used to be good, doesn't mean it still is. In the case of Unions, they are not, and should not be kept around to spread their virus. The current crop of unions will not just go away, they will stay and get even worse, because buisnesses are terrified of them and the class-action lawsuits they bring. All unions do is hurt buisnesses and allow lazy or bad employees to keep their jobs at the expense of the buisness. No matter what they do, corporations are screwed. The government taxes them into oblivion, and then they are scared to death of their own employees possibly turning on them and costing them millions or even billions of dollers. This in turn hurts the economy, makes people more anti-buisness when corporatinos have to do major lay-offs, people turn to the government for help, and socialism once again rules the day. Sorry, I reject Unions, because I value the Capitalist system.


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"So pride yourself on what you are, And hold them all to words they can't take back. I've seen a place (it comes) to me in dreams, Where fires die but light still shines for us to see! Would God bless a murder of the innocents? Would God bless a war based on pride? Would God bless a money-hungry government? Noooo! Would God bless our ineffective court system? God bless the sweatshops we run. God bless America? God bless America?" ~Rise Against (Blood Red, White & Blue)
BaronVonServers

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I'm for the freemarket, even in ideas like Unions. 

I'd favour repeal of the laws that make Union membership manditory (Florida has already done so, as a 'right to work' state), and let the Unions compete for members based on real and perceived benefits from Union membership.

If the Union was a voluntary associateion, it would be forced to be more responsive to its members.

Don't throw the idea of the Union out because of the current abuses, correct the abuses (like closed shops). 
--my farthing's worth.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupremeDirector

Yes I am a Catholic. However, if it is not dogma, I am not completly required to follow it.

 

 

I suppose it depends on your view of what constitutes dogma. The Ordinary Magisterium is binding as well as infallible, dogmatic statements. The defence of the workers to unionise does not need to be dogmatised since it is rooted in natural law, i.e., binding upon all men, not just on Catholics as a matter of dogma. In this, it is very similar to Humanae vitae which is binding upon all men, not just Catholics, since it is a matter of natural law and not of Catholic dogma.

InquisitorGeneralis

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers

I'm not Catholic, but I don't think the unions should be banned.  Free association and all that...

Actually, as labor law presently stands, unions are the ones violating free association.  Stricly speaking, if one wants absolute free association, then an employer should be allowed to not associate with unionized workers.  However, currently employers are not allowed to fire workers who organize.  Thus, unions represent a highly distorted form of "free association."


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