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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #31 
So, this strike, at this point, seems to have been a strategic win for Trump and the US. Iran has responded with a face saving measure, but that itself seems to show some deterrence has been restored, without risking another war in the Near East.

I'm not entirely sure that American forces should be in the Near East, but if they are going to be, this seems to have been a good idea.


The Democrats and media (but I repeat myself) have disgraced themselves again.
AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi
Why does any member of this forum oppose USA going to war against the Islamic Republic of Iran?


Maybe we're sick of endless foreign wars that cost trillions of dollars, tens of thousands of lives, make the world hate us, and don't benefit the American people in the slightest? We should be completely out of that region of the world. Zero military presence int he middle east, period.

There's no moral justification, from the US's point of view, in going to war with Iran. And if we want to be practical about it as well, that is a second reason not to do it.

Let the Saudi's and the Israeli's sort it out. They are competent military powers.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronTraas


Maybe we're sick of endless foreign wars that cost trillions of dollars, tens of thousands of lives, make the world hate us, and don't benefit the American people in the slightest? We should be completely out of that region of the world. Zero military presence int he middle east, period.

There's no moral justification, from the US's point of view, in going to war with Iran. And if we want to be practical about it as well, that is a second reason not to do it.

Let the Saudi's and the Israeli's sort it out. They are competent military powers.

The USA ought to support Israel and Saudi Arabia against Iranian aggression, because Israel and Saudi Arabia are traditional allies of the USA. If American soldiers had been killed by the Iranian missile attacks against American bases in Iraq, the USA ought to have declared war on Iran.
The USA going to war against Iran won't be a disaster, because neither Russia nor China will go to war against the USA for the sake of Iran.

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #34 
That's not the only way war between the US and Iran would be a bad idea. Look at the Iraq War or Libya. It would be risky and hardly worth the money and men required.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
That's not the only way war between the US and Iran would be a bad idea. Look at the Iraq War or Libya. It would be risky and hardly worth the money and men required.

Saddam deserved to be hanged, because he committed genocide against the Kurds. The US invasion of Iraq was actually successful, but the USA committed major mistakes during the occupation of Iraq. The dissolution of the Iraqi army was a disaster, and De-Ba'athification was excessive, because it targeted all members of the Ba'ath Party. Purging the prominent members of the Ba'ath Party would have been sufficient.
The US government will likely not repeat the mistakes of the occupation of Iraq, if the USA invades Iran. 
AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

Saddam deserved to be hanged, because he committed genocide against the Kurds. The US invasion of Iraq was actually successful, but the USA committed major mistakes during the occupation of Iraq. The dissolution of the Iraqi army was a disaster, and De-Ba'athification was excessive, because it targeted all members of the Ba'ath Party. Purging the prominent members of the Ba'ath Party would have been sufficient.
The US government will likely not repeat the mistakes of the occupation of Iraq, if the USA invades Iran. 


And what makes you think that a war against Iran would fare any better? Simply going in an Skilling their leader would leave a power vacuum. Actually conquering the nation and subjugating it's people would be politically impossible. The only middle ground is the same kind of garbage that we did in Iraq.

A war can only be just if there is a strong chance that the real situation on the ground can improve as a result. I don't see that as likely.

And as for the Saudis and Israelis being "traditional" allies - who cares? They don't do anything on our side of the world to help us against Mexican and South American drug cartels -- nor should they. This is their part of the world. If they want to wage war on Iran, that's their business, not ours. We should not wage war on behalf of our allies. They're big boys - let them lead the charge. We can sell them munitions. The Israelis use 5.56 NATO and 9mm - we make lots of that.

(Israel also make damn fine small arms - I'd love to get me a Jericho 941 with no rail, like any self respecting space cowboy, but that's beside the point.)
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #37 
Who says they won't repeat the mistakes? They did so in Libya and Syria, at least to an extent. The surge made up for some of the problems in Iraq, but it's still a mess to this day. It's one hell of a gamble, at best, for little real gain. I'm not completely sure, but I think it would probably be better just to let the Near East sort out its own problems.

It is also you have gone from an anti-neocon to a champion of the position of John Bolton. Heck, it isn't even clear Bolton actually wanted war with Iran.
Pallavicini

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronTraas
 And as for the Saudis and Israelis being "traditional" allies 


Under this current administration in particular, the US has morphed into the Saudi's and the Israeli's leashed pit bull.  They are not allies and in some respects never truly have been.  Along with Putin and Kim, they are now (to their great surprise, no doubt!) the US President's international masters.

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Who says they won't repeat the mistakes? They did so in Libya and Syria, at least to an extent. The surge made up for some of the problems in Iraq, but it's still a mess to this day. It's one hell of a gamble, at best, for little real gain. I'm not completely sure, but I think it would probably be better just to let the Near East sort out its own problems.

It is also you have gone from an anti-neocon to a champion of the position of John Bolton. Heck, it isn't even clear Bolton actually wanted war with Iran.

The Iranian regime is a threat to the Near East, because the Iranian regime wants to eliminate Israel, supports Hizbollah and is hostile to Saudi Arabia.
I have always supported the US invasion of Iraq, because Saddam committed genocide against the Kurds, and I have always supported the US invasion of Afghanistan, because Taliban sheltered Osama bin Laden. But I have always opposed the US invasion of Libya, because Gaddafi ceased to support international terrorism many years before the US invasion of Libya, and I have always opposed a US invasion of Syria, because Assad is the lesser evil compared to PYD, which is the Syrian branch of PKK, which is a Kurdish Communist terrorist movement.
Iran is far more likely to become a stable democracy than Iraq and Libya were, because a strong secular opposition movement exists in Iran and the Iranian national identity is very strong, while sectarianism is widespread in Iraq and tribalism is widespread in Libya. The US military government of Iran ought to hang the leaders of the Iranian ayatollah regime and dissolve the Revolutionary Guard, but the Artesh (the regular army of Iran) shall not be dissolved. The US military government shall call an election to a constituent assembly of Iran no later than a year after the US invasion of Iran. An institutional referendum, in which the options shall be a constitutional monarchy and a republic, shall be held on the same day as the election to the constituent assembly of Iran.



Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #40 
Personally, I'm not sure it is particularly in America's interest to worry about stability in the region. But let's say it is; there's still much that the US can do to try to keep Iran in lie short of an actual invasion. That would, again, be costly in terms of men and money. Why would Americans want their young men to die in Iran or pay trillions more for regime change there? It would surely be a last resort at least. First, surely, a reestablishment of deterrence and containment should be tried? It does look like Trump might have gone some way towards accomplishing that for now, much to the chagrin of the Democrats and media (but I repeat myself).
azadi

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Personally, I'm not sure it is particularly in America's interest to worry about stability in the region. But let's say it is; there's still much that the US can do to try to keep Iran in lie short of an actual invasion. That would, again, be costly in terms of men and money. Why would Americans want their young men to die in Iran or pay trillions more for regime change there? It would surely be a last resort at least. First, surely, a reestablishment of deterrence and containment should be tried? It does look like Trump might have gone some way towards accomplishing that for now, much to the chagrin of the Democrats and media (but I repeat myself).

The USA currently lacks a casus belli against the Islamic Republic of Iran, but if the Islamic Republic of Iran kills American soldiers or attacks Israel or Saudi Arabia, the USA ought to declare war on the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #42 
That depends. It may be forced to, but that doesn't mean it would be worth the trouble. You are ignoring not just the risks, but the costs. It would certainly be better if both can avoid such a situation.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
That depends. It may be forced to, but that doesn't mean it would be worth the trouble. You are ignoring not just the risks, but the costs. It would certainly be better if both can avoid such a situation.

Why I hate the Islamic Republic of Iran:
1) I'm a staunch opponent of political Islam. I support restoration of the Pahlavi monarchy of Iran, but I prefer a secular Republic of Iran to the Islamic Republic of Iran.

2) The Islamic Republic of Iran is a staunch opponent of Kurdish independence from Iraq. Iran ought to support Kurdish independence from Iraq, because we Kurds are an Iranic people. A secular Iranian regime may support Kurdish independence from Iraq.

3) The Islamic Republic of Iran wants to eliminate the State of Israel and supports Hizbollah. I support the State of Israel for religious reasons. The Old Covenant remains valid after the resurrection of Jesus. The Temple Mount must remain under Jewish sovereignty. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan evicted the ancient Jewish community of Jerusalem, which had lived in Jerusalem during the Ottoman era. The Old City of Jerusalem must remain part of Israel in order to prevent this heinous crime from being repeated. 
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #44 
AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

The USA currently lacks a casus belli against the Islamic Republic of Iran, but if the Islamic Republic of Iran kills American soldiers or attacks Israel or Saudi Arabia, the USA ought to declare war on the Islamic Republic of Iran.


Or maybe the US ought to get the hell out of that region, because we've already made enough of a mess, with no signs of anything improving in our lifetime. 

Why don't you put your own life on the line if it's something -- join some Kurdish nationalist group's military and make war on Iran? Why should we do it for you? I don't want our young soldiers to die for no benefit to the US, and likely no benefit to ANYONE. 

I'm in general annoyed by your overall attitude -- stating over and over what you want and how it must be done. In most case that makes you merely irritating and childish. But you really cross the line into being offensive when you call for a nation other than your own to invest trillions of dollars and thousands of lives into waging war against a nation you hate, however justifiable that hatred may or may not be. (read: I don't care and don't want you to tell me why you hate Iran or think the regime should be toppled. That's 100% irrelevant.)
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