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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #16 
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Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
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Originally Posted by campeadorshin
You got that from wiki, a very crappy source.  Truth by consensus.


I'm ready to hear your learned definition. 
I'm also off to go check my hard copy dictionary to see how different it is (As thats spot on the meaning I've known for Fascism since about the 6th grade.)

Websters Encyclopedic Dictionary 1977 Edition
Fascism (fash' ism) n. A centralized autocratic national regime with extremely nationalistic policies and an economic system based on state-controlled capitalism.

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campeadorshin

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Reply with quote  #17 
You may as well not try to make Franco look like a fascist, in the pre V2 world and in the trad circles his nation is seen as a success.

Many look at him and scream "fascist!" just because Hitler helped him kick out the commies, but Franco was no Nazi.


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Communism and Capitalism are evil!!! http://distributism.com/
campeadorshin

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Websters Encyclopedic Dictionary 1977 Edition
Fascism (fash' ism) n. A centralized autocratic national regime with extremely nationalistic policies and an economic system based on state-controlled capitalism.Websters Encyclopedic Dictionary 1977 Edition
Fascism (fash' ism) n. A centralized autocratic national regime with extremely nationalistic policies and an economic system based on state-controlled capitalism.


Capitalism has been condemned by the Church, and no Catholic likes centralization of State power.  If Franco was doing this, then he wasn't being a very good Catholic.  But I've not come across any credible evidence of him being "fascist".

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Communism and Capitalism are evil!!! http://distributism.com/
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #19 
Campeadorshin,

I won't gainsay your determination of Catholic teaching with regard to Capitalism, nor centralization of power.  I don't think unfettered Capitalism is a 'good thing', and have reservations about the centralization of excessive state power myself.

However, you can't play the part of Humpty-Dumpty, words have established meanings, you don't get to redefine the terms to suit yourself.

Fascism is a form of Government, it has its good implementations (Franco's Spain comes to mind as a possible example), and its bad implementations (Hitler's Germany springs to mind).   It doesn't exclude Monarchs, Republicans, nor Dictators, - it also doesn't require any of the above for its implementation.

Don't let the connotation assigned to the word by its detractors confuse your understanding of the meaning.

Franco was very nationalistic, he was autocratic (ruled as a regent for the absent Crown), and pushed state controlled capitalism, he is a 'text book example' of a fascist leader.  (as was Queen Elizabeth I)

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campeadorshin

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Reply with quote  #20 
I'm not trying to redefine anything, I'm trying to find a source that hasn't been infected with the ideologies of Franco's enemies.

Truth isn't something you can find easily anymore.


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http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Communism and Capitalism are evil!!! http://distributism.com/
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #21 
You're letting other peoples prejudice affect you to much.  Fascism isn't bad in and of itself.  (Fascists can be very bad people, but so can Monarchs)

This is nothing wrong with being nationalistic, autocratic, and wanting to control capitalism for the good of the nation as a whole.  If Franco had been a real king, it would have been a strong and enlightened Monarchy. 
 



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Reply with quote  #22 

Franco, who has been adopted as an hero since his death by the Spanish fascists, was hated and execrated by them during his life. Why? Because Franco prevented them from carrying out the Fascist Revolution! Franco was a XIXth century Spanish, Catholic authoritarian. It is instructive that both Hitler and Mussolini, true Fascists, considered Catholic authoritarianism the first enemy, even before the communists (and in Hitler's case the Jews).

hubertgaston

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Reply with quote  #23 
Jovan66102 is right.
There is in fascism or the national socialism a "revolutionary" dimension, a plebeian dimension.
However this "revolutionary" dimension does not exist at Franco, nor at the majority of its allies (carlists, alphonsists, christians democratic, national conservatives, military...).
Even the ideology falangist of the FE de las JONS was influenced by the doctrines of the french monarchist Action Française than by Mussolini.
The only true Spanish fascist was Ledesma Ramos, founder of the JONS (a fraction of the Falange), and his group around the review Patria Libre.
The francoist regime was a national, authoritative, conservative and catholic regime. Not a fascist regime.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #24 
Where are you fellows getting the definition of Fascism that you are using?

Every place I've looked, ANY strongly nationalistic, autocratic (authoritarian), with state controlled capitalism would meet the definition of fascism. 



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hubertgaston

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Reply with quote  #25 
The definitions of the dictionaries are often brief or politically directed...
Concerning the "revolutionary" aspects of fascism I refer to the milanese program of April 1919 of the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento and to works of the Israeli historian Zeev Sternhell devoted to the "revolutionary right". One Spain more particularly, works of Bartholomé Bennassar (Franco, The War of Spain), Arnaud Imatz (José-Antonio and the Spanish Falange) and Stanley Payne (falange). I don't know if these texts exist in English.
I add that the fascist regime is not "authoritarian", but "totalitarian" (Cf. Mussolini dixit).
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #26 
hubertgaston,

I'm not at all conversant with Italian, nor Hebrew, and make no claims for the meaning of the word fascism in either language.  Nor do I pretend that the connotation of fascism has not become derogatory.  I'm simply saying that in ENGLISH, according to the dictionary (which is the authority on the meaning of words) fascism accurately describes the government of Franco, and several others.  The Websters I used was contemporaneous with Franco, the term, in English, at that time, would have applied to his government.

The difference in authoritarian and totalitarian is one of degree, and perhaps the Italian fasiscts would have prefered the later. 

Not all fascist regeimes are the same, just as not all Monarchies are.  The 'political spectrum' of Monarchies (from absolute to total figurhead) is wide, so it would seem  reasonable to me the degree of each of the components of fascism would also have a wide 'spectrum'. 

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hubertgaston

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Reply with quote  #27 
Dear Baron,
Admittedly "Fascism" is multiform. And one can say that there are fascisms.
But, in the particular case of Spain, the francoist regime is not a fascist regime.
To be fascist, it misses to him:
- anticlericalism
- the totalitarianism (which is quite different from authoritarianism); totalitarianism implies that the individual disappears in front of the State and/or the Party;
- will to create a "new man" or a "superman";
- a socialist national speech (in opposition to the socialism international of the Marxists).
And I add that Franco, personally, was never racist or anti-semite, and his political regime either.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #28 
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Originally Posted by hubertgaston
Dear Baron,
Admittedly "Fascism" is multiform. And one can say that there are fascisms.
But, in the particular case of Spain, the francoist regime is not a fascist regime.
To be fascist, it misses to him:
- anticlericalism
- the totalitarianism (which is quite different from authoritarianism); totalitarianism implies that the individual disappears in front of the State and/or the Party;
- will to create a "new man" or a "superman";
- a socialist national speech (in opposition to the socialism international of the Marxists).
And I add that Franco, personally, was never racist or anti-semite, and his political regime either.


Hubertgaston,

What dictionary are you using that defines Fascism to require
Anti-clericism, totalitarianism, - a will to create a "new man", and - a socialist national speech?  The ones I've found don't have those requirements.  I'm not saying that Franco was any of those things either, only that he meets the definition(s)

Fascism (IPA: [ˈfæʃɪzm]) is a radical political ideology that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, anti-liberalism and anti-communism.   AND Fascism (fash' ism) n. A centralized autocratic national regime with extremely nationalistic policies and an economic system based on state-controlled capitalism.

You're trying to change the meaning of Fascism into something its not, so that Franco doesn't fit the definition you're using.  I'm not buying.  Words have meanings, established by consensus, recorded in authoritative books (called dictionaries). 

Do you not agree that Franco's Spain was anti-communist, anti-liberal, militaristic, authoritarian, nationalistic, and had state controlled capitalism as its economy base? 

Do you deny that Franco's Spain had a autocratic national regime that was extremely nationalistic?

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hubertgaston

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Reply with quote  #29 

Of agreement. Thus according to your definition of Fascism, the empire of Nicolas II or German monarchy, the imperial regime in Japan of 1867 to 1945 or that of Châh of Iran are... fascists.

 

Historians wrote bulky book on the fascism and the nature of fascism. Fascist theorists written considerably about fascism's nature. Personally, I think that a definition of two or three lines is inevitably incomplete. The best proof is than the question of the democracy is not even mentioned there.

 

You would make well, Dear Baron, of less reading the brief definitions of the dictionaries and more the texts of references.

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubertgaston

Of agreement. Thus according to your definition of Fascism, the empire of Nicolas II or German monarchy, the imperial regime in Japan of 1867 to 1945 or that of Châh of Iran are... fascists.

I actually presented HM Queen Elizabeth the First as a Monarchical example, I Think Perhaps Nicholas II would fail the definition on 'Nationalistic' (If I recall, he was still trying to open aspects of Russian Culture to 'Western Ideas'.) 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hubertgaston

Historians wrote bulky book on the fascism and the nature of fascism. Fascist theorists written considerably about fascism's nature. Personally, I think that a definition of two or three lines is inevitably incomplete. The best proof is than the question of the democracy is not even mentioned there. 

Perhaps because their has never been a democracy at the nation-state level?  Fascists can be Kings, Prime Ministers, Presidents, or Dictators.  If a true democracy ever arose, it too would be subject to becoming a Fascist state.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hubertgaston

You would make well, Dear Baron, of less reading the brief definitions of the dictionaries and more the texts of references.


I actually do read a good bit of reference material, both the 'learned works' and the base documents upon which these 'venerable persons' expound.  I tend to find that these 'learned ones' are often more impressed with impressing each other than with relaying knowledge. 

I think that perhaps the current 'intelligentsia' is interested in suppressing all forms of government that are not 'Global, "Democratic/Representative", and secular'.  To this end they attempt to smear the all the other systems. 

Those who insist that Franco wasn't Fascist are tacitly helping in the smear campaign against Nationalistic, Authoritarian, Militaristic governments (fascism) by excluding one of its 'success stories'.  If only Hitler and Mussolini are left as 'Fascists' then the political option of 'national capitalism' has been pretty effectively tainted, and removed from the world of polite discourse.  I refuse to support that effort.


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