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azadi

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist


Gaddafi has done emense harm to my country.  He poured money and weapons into the Derg regime which butchered my people, and then when he fell out with them poured money into various separatist groups and Islamic fundamentalist groups.  He was a truly evil man who has the blood of thousands on his hands.  May he burn for eternity.

Gaddafi's crimes against Ethiopia aren't comparable to Saddam's crimes against Kurdistan and Honecker's crimes against Germany. Only Mengistu's crimes against Ethiopia are comparable to Saddam's crimes against Kurdistan and Honecker's crimes against Germany.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #32 
True. It's Gaddafi's crimes against Libya that are the best comparison.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #33 
Gaddafi funded the IRA which exists solely to tear my country apart.
So yes, he has done harm to my country.

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #34 
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Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
Gaddafi funded the IRA which exists solely to tear my country apart.
So yes, he has done harm to my country.

I dislike Ulster Unionism, I prefer Sinn Fein to the DUP and I prefer Gerry Adams to Ian Paisley, but I don't support Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the Ulstermen. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #35 
Huh? He didn't ask about your esteem for a terrorist front group.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #36 
Whilst I'm a staunch Unionist, I too am not a particular fan of Ulster Unionism, I prefer British-Irish Unionism of the sort that exists in moderate NI circles and the remains of the Southern Unionists.
Nonetheless, that has little to do with the question of the harm done by Gadaffi to "our" countries.
Just because you don't like the UK's borders doesn't mean that Gadaffi's crimes against the British and Irish peoples should be ignored.

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #37 
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Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
Whilst I'm a staunch Unionist, I too am not a particular fan of Ulster Unionism, I prefer British-Irish Unionism of the sort that exists in moderate NI circles and the remains of the Southern Unionists.
Nonetheless, that has little to do with the question of the harm done by Gadaffi to "our" countries.
Just because you don't like the UK's borders doesn't mean that Gadaffi's crimes against the British and Irish peoples should be ignored.

I'm opposed to Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the Ulstermen, but the terrorist campaign of the IRA was caused by legitimate grievances. The Ulster Catholics were oppressed before the Troubles. Gaddafi was an anti-imperialist, and an anti-imperialist supporting the IRA is understandable.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #38 
Gaddafi was a murderous nutcase, which is a glaring fact you consistently ignore. If that anti-imperialism, it really does the cause no favours.

The Ulster Catholics suffered discrimination, but not on the scale warranting an armed uprising. And terrorism is never acceptable. You don't half use a lot of weasel words to go just up the point of supporting the terror campaign, but stopping on the brink.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Gaddafi was a murderous nutcase, which is a glaring fact you consistently ignore. If that anti-imperialism, it really does the cause no favours.

The Ulster Catholics suffered discrimination, but not on the scale warranting an armed uprising. And terrorism is never acceptable. You don't half use a lot of weasel words to go just up the point of supporting the terror campaign, but stopping on the brink.

I sincerely oppose Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the Ulstermen, because I'm a staunch supporter of the right to national self-determination. I'm a supporter of the Good Friday Agreement. But I have to admit, that Britain might never have accepted the Good Friday Agreement without the terrorist campaign of the IRA.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #40 
So you are justifying IRA terrorism? Again, I wonder what Royalcello would think of such talk here.

The GFA was a shameful surrender to terrorists already infiltrated and beaten. But it wasn't necessary to right the wrongs done to the Catholic Ulstermen. Those were already in the process of being rectified when The Troubles began. The terrorism was just a hindrance, as well as moral abomination.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Wessexman
So you are justifying IRA terrorism? Again, I wonder what Royalcello would think of such talk here.

The GFA was a shameful surrender to terrorists already infiltrated and beaten. But it wasn't necessary to right the wrongs done to the Catholic Ulstermen. Those were already in the process of being rectified when The Troubles began. The terrorism was just a hindrance, as well as moral abomination.

I'm not justifying IRA terrorism, because the IRA supported Irish unification without a referendum during the Troubles, and because terrorists targeting civilians is wrong. I support the Good Friday Agreement, because it allows Ulster to join the Republic of Ireland, if a majority of the Ulstermen vote in favour of it in a referendum.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #42 
Interesting wording, here and above. You hint above that the terrorism at least had a good outcome and now your major objection to it is not that it was murder, but about referenda.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Interesting wording, here and above. You hint above that the terrorism at least had a good outcome and now your major objection to it is not that it was murder, but about referenda.

Oppressed ethnic groups conducting an armed struggle against the state is legitimate, but targeting civilians is wrong. Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the Ulstermen is wrong. Britain fighting the IRA was justified, because the IRA didn't recognize the right to national self-determination of the Ulstermen during the Troubles, and the Republic of Ireland claimed Ulster as part of its territory before the Good Friday Agreement. Britain and the Republic of Ireland both recognized the right to national self-determination of the Ulstermen in the Good Friday Agreement.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #44 
Only when all options are exhausted and the oppression is severe enough is arm struggle warranted against a state, and that wasn't the case here. Besides, the struggle was by a minority group to force the majority to become part of another state against their wishes. Britain fighting the IRA was justified because they were a murderous terrorist organisation that entered into a completely unnecessary campaign of violence and murder.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Only when all options are exhausted and the oppression is severe enough is arm struggle warranted against a state, and that wasn't the case here. Besides, the struggle was by a minority group to force the majority to become part of another state against their wishes. Britain fighting the IRA was justified because they were a murderous terrorist organisation that entered into a completely unnecessary campaign of violence and murder.

Britain fighting the IRA was indeed justified, because the IRA targeted civilian Britons and fought for Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the Ulstermen.
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