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AaronTraas

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist

I personally have not heard Senator Sanders say that he wants to emulate Scandinavian constitutional monarchy.  Which of the Bernadotte, or Glucksburg families would become King/Queen in America?  If that is his intention I might vote for him...


That would change my view of him quite a bit. 

I'm honestly not voting for president no matter who's on the ticket. Complete waste of time. I'm in NJ, and my state is going to whoever has "D" next to their name. 
AaronTraas

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Originally Posted by azadi
He supports free college and Medicare for all, but he doesn't want to abolish private property and he doesn't support state atheism


Sanders has said that Christians who actually hold Christian beliefs about salvation aren't fit for office. 

How is he going to make free Medicare for all to work? By forcing all doctors to accept it, and dictating prices for services. 

He also wants to take my guns. There's no universe in which I support that. So there's at least some private property he wants to abolish. 
Ethiomonarchist

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Sanders and Warren would decimate private industry, particularly the banking world, and I believe would put the economy in a spiral.  I don't understand this new passion for socialism among the younger generation.  I hate t he healthcare system as it exists today.  Health Insurance is a cold and heartless business that deliberately inflates costs and makes life miserable for those facing them.  What it needs is regulation, and competition.  I'm all for a public option that would cover everyone that needs it, but that does not do away with private insurance.  The mandatory Madicare for all and no private insurance plan would be a real horror. 
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
DavidV

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The problem is that in the West today there is an ignorance about how evil Communism is, which is deliberate.
AaronTraas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
Sanders and Warren would decimate private industry, particularly the banking world, and I believe would put the economy in a spiral.  I don't understand this new passion for socialism among the younger generation.  I hate t he healthcare system as it exists today.  Health Insurance is a cold and heartless business that deliberately inflates costs and makes life miserable for those facing them.  What it needs is regulation, and competition.  I'm all for a public option that would cover everyone that needs it, but that does not do away with private insurance.  The mandatory Madicare for all and no private insurance plan would be a real horror. 


I agree strongly.

Though, I'd personally like to see the banking world also more regulated, and in an ideal world which will never happen in my lifetime, a return to traditional understanding of usury. But completely up-ending the banking system all at once will make the great depression look mild. 

I think the new passion for socialism is based on 2 things:
- a generation passed without seeing the consequences of socialism world-wide
- the current system not working for young people, young people associating the current system with capitalism, and assuming if capitalism is bad, socialism is good

I see the issue with too much concentrated power in mega-corporations, combined with runaway costs in healthcare and education, as well as college being seen these days as necessary to make a good living. Making healthcare and education free sounds great to people who can't get ahead because of the crazy costs, but making them free does nothing to fix the underlying cost disease; it merely shifts the burden of who pays for it. 

In medicine, if you're going to subsidize anything, I'd start with the supply side. We have a shortage of doctors. And who can blame smart kids for not going into medicine? You're asking them to spend 12+ years in higher education+internship and get loans for a half million dollars or more, then pay crushing amounts in malpractice insurance. The payoff is there in the end, like when they're 50, but the effort to reward ratio is really high compared to going into computer science or engineering or finance, and getting a decent starting salary after only 4 years. Tort reform + subsidizing specifically education for doctors could alleviate that burden and thus increase the supply in the timeframe of 15 years.

And again, I'm not against subsidizing healthcare for those in need, but doing so for everyone and without attacking the root cause of the cost disease is kicking the can down the road.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #21 
It is probably not accurate to call Sanders a communist, but he actually has had pretty radical sympathies and positions for much of his adult life. Is there a communist or socialist regime he hasn't given some of support to? And, at thirty-five, he was preaching nationalisation of all major industries. There's little evidence he has substantially revised these positions, much less regretted them. Of course, not being a Republican, the mainstream media won't bring up such embarrassing issues for him.
azadi

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Originally Posted by DavidV
The problem is that in the West today there is an ignorance about how evil Communism is, which is deliberate.

Conflating democratic socialism with Communism is wrong. Sanders is a social democrat, who rejects Blairism. I'm a social democrat, but I call myself a socialist, because I reject Blairism.
Sanders doesn't propose nationalisation of all major industries. He proposes introducing tuition-free college education and emulating the British NHS.
I'm endorsing Trump in the upcoming presidential election, because I like his foreign policy, but I prefer the domestic policy of Sanders to the domestic policy of Trump. I'm endorsing Trump, because the foreign policy of the US President is far more important to me as a non-American than the domestic policy of the US President.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #23 
Sanders did propose nationalising wide swathes of industry in the mid-70s, when he was already in his mid-30s. He doesn't emphasise it right now, but there's very little evidence he has significantly changed his position.

Also, his healthcare and university plans are pie-in-the-sky. They would add trillions to the budget. He also needs to ban private health insurance to make his healthcare plan work.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Sanders did propose nationalising wide swathes of industry in the mid-70s, when he was already in his mid-30s. He doesn't emphasise it right now, but there's very little evidence he has significantly changed his position.

Also, his healthcare and university plans are pie-in-the-sky. They would add trillions to the budget. He also needs to ban private health insurance to make his healthcare plan work.

Condemning Sanders, because he once proposed nationalising wide swathes of industry, is wrong, because he no longer proposes nationalising wide swathes of industry. He currently supports traditional social democracy.
Claiming that his healthcare and university plans won't work is wrong, because Germany and the Scandinavian countries provide tuition-free university education, and most European countries provide universal health care, including Britain. Even Boris Johnson doesn't want to privatise the NHS.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #25 
But my point was precisely that he hasn't actually made it clear he doesn't propose that. He doesn't lead with it, but his views have remained remarkably consistent in many areas since the sixties. What is there to think he doesn't still believe in widespread nationalisation? What is there to believe he isn't sympathetic to communist and socialist regimes?

I didn't simply say the two policies won't work. I gave an explicit and seemingly large problem with them: the fact that they will cost trillions. This is widely known in the US. It is one reason why Warren got into trouble, because she has similar ideas but was fool enough to try to bring them down to earth by talking about how they'd be funded, even if she fudged things. Sanders wisely just focuses on the ideals and ignores such prosaic concerns. But even many on the left of America politics are worried about how to fund such policies, especially given the huge liabilities on things like Social Security that the US government already has. You say nothing about these issues. Simply appealing to Germany doesn't address the specific details and context of Sander's plans.

It also should be said that the Scandinavian countries have a massive tax burden to pay for their relatively generous welfare states. Even people of quite modest income pay a large proportion of their income in tax. They are also somewhat less generous than they used to be and there are signs that their citizens are becoming even less willing over time to support such generous systems. These are, or at least were, peculiar, relatively homogeneous counties, quite unlike the US in some key ways. Mass immigration is one important reason for a decline in support for such expansive welfare systems. The US is already an immigrant nation.
AaronTraas

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Originally Posted by azadi

Claiming that his healthcare and university plans won't work is wrong, because Germany and the Scandinavian countries provide tuition-free university education, and most European countries provide universal health care, including Britain. Even Boris Johnson doesn't want to privatise the NHS.


The situation is very different in the US. If no fundamental changes are made to our healthcare or education system prior to nationalizing them, it would either bankrupt the country or completely destroy academia and our existing healthcare system, or both. I detailed this in my reply to Ethiomonarchist. 

It's not that it can't be done, but it would be a very difficult thing to do right. And doing it right would take decades. And no one is willing to think longer than the next election cycle -- and that's why democracy stinks.

The other issue is that the US is a lot physically bigger and more diverse in income and culture than any of those other nations individually. There are a lot of challenges here. It would be one thing for say, the individual states to one-by-one start socializing healthcare, but large sweeping one-size-fits-all measures don't work well here. It would be like if the EU were to try to run socialized medicine for all its member states -- a disaster.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #27 
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I'm a social democrat, but I call myself a socialist


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I'm endorsing Trump in the upcoming presidential election, because I like his foreign policy, but I prefer the domestic policy of Sanders to the domestic policy of Trump.


Wow!  This is interesting, a socialist who supports Trump! [eek]

I suppose it's good not to fit into the world's cookie cutter political categories and make pragmatic choices of this kind, but this is a first for me to see.  I wonder what other socialists think when you tell them you endorse Trump for the Presidency?  Or perhaps you don't openly vocalize that...

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
VivatReginaScottorum

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Reply with quote  #28 
When it comes to economics I'm publically a moderate conservative ordoliberal, at least presently, but privately I have a lot of sympathy for market socialism and would support it over capitalism if it could successfully be disassociated from other radical leftist policies. I don't support Trump, but I do support strongly conservative positions in other areas (otherwise, what would I be doing here?).

I'm not sure what Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, healthcare and socialism have to do with the original thread topic, though.

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That which concerns the mystery of the King's power is not lawful to be disputed; for that is to wade into the weakness of Princes, and to take away the mystical reverence that belongs unto them that sit in the throne of God. - James VI and I of England, Scotland and Ireland
azadi

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist




Wow!  This is interesting, a socialist who supports Trump! [eek]

I suppose it's good not to fit into the world's cookie cutter political categories and make pragmatic choices of this kind, but this is a first for me to see.  I wonder what other socialists think when you tell them you endorse Trump for the Presidency?  Or perhaps you don't openly vocalize that...

The foreign policy of the US President is far more important to me as a non-American than the domestic policy of the US President. I support the foreign policy of Trump, because he wants friendly relations with Russia, because he is a staunch supporter of Israel, because he supports sanctions against the Iranian regime and because he has allowed Russia and the Assad regime to occupy the Kurdish regions of Syria. Assad ought to rule the Kurdish regions of Syria, because PYD is the Syrian branch of PKK.
I'm a socialist, but I'm not a leftist. I'm a cultural conservative and a nationalist. I support banning non-European immigration to Europe and I'm opposed to gay marriage and transgender rights.
Marine Le Pen supports socialist economic policies.
VivatReginaScottorum

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

The foreign policy of the US President is far more important to me as a non-American than the domestic policy of the US President. I support the foreign policy of Trump, because he wants friendly relations with Russia, because he is a staunch supporter of Israel, because he supports sanctions against the Iranian regime and because he has allowed Russia and the Assad regime to occupy the Kurdish regions of Syria. Assad ought to rule the Kurdish regions of Syria, because PYD is the Syrian branch of PKK.
I'm a socialist, but I'm not a leftist.

You admitted that you're not actually a socialist, but a social democrat, earlier in this thread. And being a "socialist" but not a "leftist" is oxymoronic. More accurate to say that you're a leftist but not a liberal.
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I'm a cultural conservative and a nationalist. I support banning non-European immigration to Europe and I'm opposed to gay marriage and transgender rights.

Much of this would apply to the USSR under Stalin or North Korea too.
Quote:

Marine Le Pen supports socialist economic policies.

No, she doesn't. The National Rally advocate mixed market economics, they're not looking for collective ownership of the means of production.

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That which concerns the mystery of the King's power is not lawful to be disputed; for that is to wade into the weakness of Princes, and to take away the mystical reverence that belongs unto them that sit in the throne of God. - James VI and I of England, Scotland and Ireland
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