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azadi

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The fundamentals of Christianity according to me:

- Trinitarianism.
- Dyophysitism. 
- The Father being the sole origin of the Holy Spirit.
- The Ten Commandments.
- Belief in eternal life.
- Rejection of justification by faith alone.
- Rejection of predestination.



MatthewJTaylor

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By that definition I'm not a Christian
P.S. I'm a Christian
I accept filioque
I believe in Sola Fide
I hold to strict predestination

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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
By that definition I'm not a Christian
P.S. I'm a Christian
I accept filioque
I believe in Sola Fide
I hold to strict predestination

A heretic is still a Christian. Sola Fide and strict predestination are heresies, but filioque isn't a heresy, because according to the Catholic Church, filioque doesn't mean that the Son is an origin of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church affirms, that the Father is the sole origin of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son in time. I dislike filioque, because it can easily be misunderstood as the Son being an origin of the Holy Spirit. Claiming, that the Son is an origin of the Holy Spirit is a grave heresy.
The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Nestorian Church are legitimate branches of Christianity, but Protestantism is heretical. The Anglican Church is also heretical, because the 39 Articles of the Church of England are heretical.
InVinoVeritas

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Love, love, love, all the way. Love of God, first and foremost, then love of neighbor and love of self.
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MatthewJTaylor

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

A heretic is still a Christian. Sola Fide and strict predestination are heresies, but filioque isn't a heresy, because according to the Catholic Church, filioque doesn't mean that the Son is an origin of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church affirms, that the Father is the sole origin of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son in time. I dislike filioque, because it can easily be misunderstood as the Son being an origin of the Holy Spirit. Claiming, that the Son is an origin of the Holy Spirit is a grave heresy.
The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Nestorian Church are legitimate branches of Christianity, but Protestantism is heretical. The Anglican Church is also heretical, because the 39 Articles of the Church of England are heretical.


What do you mean by origin then?

The 3 persons are co-eternal so I presume that you don't mean that one "creates" the others as in Arianism?


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MatthewJTaylor

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

A heretic is still a Christian. Sola Fide and strict predestination are heresies, but filioque isn't a heresy, because according to the Catholic Church, filioque doesn't mean that the Son is an origin of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church affirms, that the Father is the sole origin of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son in time. I dislike filioque, because it can easily be misunderstood as the Son being an origin of the Holy Spirit. Claiming, that the Son is an origin of the Holy Spirit is a grave heresy.
The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Nestorian Church are legitimate branches of Christianity, but Protestantism is heretical. The Anglican Church is also heretical, because the 39 Articles of the Church of England are heretical.

Why accept some branches that disagree with you as legitimate and others as illegitimate? A Protestant may end up agreeing with you more closely than a Catholic and yet you seemingly hold Catholicism higher.

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MatthewJTaylor

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If you simply mean the "roots" of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead, then it would be from the Father and Son as one, not seperately.
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MatthewJTaylor

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Hope this illustration explains what I mean:

Read from top to bottom
Circle is The Father / The LORD
Cross is The Son / The Word / The Angel of the LORD
Fire is The Spirit / The Spirit of the LORD
Origins of the Spirit.png 


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MatthewJTaylor

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If I were to write out the "fundamentals" of Christianity, it'd be something more like this:

God created the Universe.
In the universe He created Man.
Man went against the will of God.
This alienated Man from God.
God promised redemption of Man.
The divine Son of God came to Earth in the flesh of a Man.
The redemption was achieved by the sacrifice of the Son.
The Son will come again and bring the Universe to its conclusion.
Redeemed Man shall wed with the Son in everlasting communion.

It's really vaguely worded and would requrie explanation but I think that's a better start than just listing terms.

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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

Why accept some branches that disagree with you as legitimate and others as illegitimate? A Protestant may end up agreeing with you more closely than a Catholic and yet you seemingly hold Catholicism higher.

I agree far more closely with the Catholic Church than with Protestantism on most matters. I believe in good works being necessary to salvation, I believe in free will, I support prayer for the dead, I support veneration of Mary and the saints and I support monasticism. I agree even more closely with the Orthodox Church than with the Catholic Church, because I'm opposed to filioque. But I agree with Calvinism on icons. 
MatthewJTaylor

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There will be some Protestants who will hold to agree with all of that but are not members of the branches you count as legitimate.
Are they legitimate?

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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
If you simply mean the "roots" of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead, then it would be from the Father and Son as one, not seperately.

The Son is begotten of the Father according to the Nicene Creed. Claiming, that the Father and the Son both are causes of the Holy Spirit subordinates the Holy Spirit to the Son. According to the Orthodox Church, believing that both the Father and the Son are causes of the Holy Spirit is heresy, but believing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son in time is acceptable. The Nestorian Church also rejects filioque. 
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
There will be some Protestants who will hold to agree with all of that but are not members of the branches you count as legitimate.
Are they legitimate?

Neither Lutheranism nor Calvinism accept good works being necessary to salvation, and both Lutheranism and Calvinism reject veneration of Mary and the saints and monasticism.
MatthewJTaylor

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

Neither Lutheranism nor Calvinism accept good works being necessary to salvation, and both Lutheranism and Calvinism reject veneration of Mary and the saints and monasticism.

Indeed, though I have some sympathy for monasticism.
Luckily for this conversation, Lutheranism and Calvinism are far from the totality of Protestantism.

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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #15 
Whilst I agree with most of those (I don't think a Christian can reject predestination, but, certainly, most Eastern Christians, Catholics, and quite a few Protestants see it as compatible with free will), that seems a rather partisan list if we are talking about a basic, inclusive Christianity.

I would say only the first and the one on the ten commandments is fundamental (assuming you aren't interpreting this later in some controversial way, such as to support iconoclasm). Whether duophysitism is fundamental depends on what you mean by it. If you mean simply the acknowledgement that Christ is fully man and fully God (whilst be one being or 'person'), I agree. If you mean to rule out the Oriental Orthodox, that is, again, quite a partisan and particular view, and hardly a basic or inclusive one.

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