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18th_Brumaire

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Reply with quote  #16 
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Originally Posted by Saxe
Being quirky enough myself, I am trying hard not to be disrespectful of the Trekkie-like reverence and idealization of royal duty and royal destiny behind some comments. Why must internet monarchism often represent itself as something akin to an eccentric video-game cult? This does nothing to advance the cause, nothing to attract mainstream adherents. But perhaps that is precisely the idea-- I really do not know or understand.

Queen Alexandra was a very real twentieth-century person, not some abstract medieval paragon of sacred royal duty. She had every right to choose her final resting place and to assume that her choice would be respected. Hers is not at all the same case as that of Empress Marie Feodorovna, who from her marriage in 1866 until her flight from Russia in 1919 fully expected to be buried in Russia beside her husband; that is a royal remains-transfer to be applauded. These romantic and idealized pronouncements about Queen Alexandra's final royal duty etc. do nothing to inspire monarchism or serious conversation among level-headed people of our times. But perhaps I am naive in assuming that the active promotion of monarchism is more desirable to some here than the cozy comfort gotten from maintaining a small circle of like minds.


I'm in agreement with you entirely, for what it's worth.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
Well, actually I think the return of Yugoslavia's former monarch and the royal consorts to rest there is intended to promote the cause of monarchism in Serbia, and will. That is why I refer to the fulfilment of a duty. It is not an abstract but a practical end that is being served, otherwise the duty would hardly exist. Not many people will think about it in your terms, being entirely uninterested in the lives of the two Queens and their possible thoughts. They will just see Serbian royalty coming home. I think it is you that is preferring sentiment to the active promotion of monarchism.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxe
Being quirky enough myself, I am trying hard not to be disrespectful of the Trekkie-like reverence and idealization of royal duty and royal destiny behind some comments. Why must internet monarchism often represent itself as something akin to an eccentric video-game cult? This does nothing to advance the cause, nothing to attract mainstream adherents. But perhaps that is precisely the idea-- I really do not know or understand.

Queen Alexandra was a very real twentieth-century person, not some abstract medieval paragon of sacred royal duty. She had every right to choose her final resting place and to assume that her choice would be respected. Hers is not at all the same case as that of Empress Marie Feodorovna, who from her marriage in 1866 until her flight from Russia in 1919 fully expected to be buried in Russia beside her husband; that is a royal remains-transfer to be applauded. These romantic and idealized pronouncements about Queen Alexandra's final royal duty etc. do nothing to inspire monarchism or serious conversation among level-headed people of our times. But perhaps I am naive in assuming that the active promotion of monarchism is more desirable to some here than the cozy comfort gotten from maintaining a small circle of like minds.


I'm not one for being quirky though I find some monarchists who take pride in being so. But for me, monarchism is a legitimate and worthy cause and ideal that I fiercely defend and promote, mindful as I am of contemporary politics, I aim to make it as appealing as possible to everyone.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #19 
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Originally Posted by Peter
Well, actually I think the return of Yugoslavia's former monarch and the royal consorts to rest there is intended to promote the cause of monarchism in Serbia, and will. That is why I refer to the fulfilment of a duty. It is not an abstract but a practical end that is being served, otherwise the duty would hardly exist. Not many people will think about it in your terms, being entirely uninterested in the lives of the two Queens and their possible thoughts. They will just see Serbian royalty coming home. I think it is you that is preferring sentiment to the active promotion of monarchism.


Thank you, Peter! As a Serb, I want to see our Queens buried in the Fatherland!

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Saxe

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Not many people will think about it in your terms, being entirely uninterested in the lives of the two Queens and their possible thoughts. They will just see Serbian royalty coming home. I think it is you that is preferring sentiment to the active promotion of monarchism.



You mistake basic humanity for sentiment. But even so, I would be the first to prefer enlightenment, sentiment and decency over the geeky internet "steamroller monarchism" you advocate just above in your disregard of the person Queen Alexandra in this thread: monarchism for the sake of monarchism at all costs, and collateral damage be damned. This is enough to repel this curious and moderate visitor, and stifle any hope of meaningful dialogue. 
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #21 
This is a very odd argument and I think "Saxe" is being unreasonably hard on Peter who is hardly a "steamroller monarchist" (whatever that is).
Peter

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Reply with quote  #22 
I don't know why quite so many personalities are being used in this argument. I have sympathy for the late Queen Alexandra and the difficult circumstances in which she lived her life. I would not want her remains, or anyone's, disturbed without good reason. However, I think that the restoration of the Kingdom of Serbia has the potential to be very beneficial to the Serbian people. It is not just a question of me liking monarchies and wanting to see them everywhere, though I do think constitutional monarchy is an excellent system of government, and all the better when a monarchy has historical roots in the land, as is the case in Serbia. In this particular case the country has a very tarnished image abroad and a record of poor governance, and an excellent and admirable king-in-waiting who is more than willing to serve, indeed has already been serving the Serbian people day in day out since he was permitted to return. A new start under such a personable and worthy King, as a constitutional monarch of course, is the best and most hopeful thing I can think of for Serbia, and is also a realistic prospect.

The return of the monarch and two Queens Consort whose remains until now have lain in other lands is a reaffirmation of the historical worth of the monarchy, and, frankly, a publicity opportunity as well as a solemn occasion, advancing the cause of restoration in both aspects. To say "Well, Queen Marie though she lived here all these years and was Queen largely hated the place, better leave her where she was happiest" and "Queen Alexandra never set foot here and was estranged from her husband the King, better leave her in her native land resting with her beloved mother" would, on the other hand, hardly be advancing the cause. and it is difficult to see on what other basis than the truth a decision not to inter them with the others of the family to which for better or worse they belonged could be explained. Like most truths these are only partial, anyway. Queen Alexandra married for love, and though the marriage did not turn out happy it produced a son whom she loved. Queen Marie, along with Princess Aspasia, played a large part in raising that son, and, the two Queens not being available for consultation, I think the decision as to where they should finally rest can reasonably be left to him, who knew and loved them back, as opposed to having read books about them.

I hope that Saxe will continue in dialogue here. I was very pleased when he joined to have another person with genealogical interests on the forum. I love talking about royal genealogy, even to myself, and though I know from the reads and what people say from time to time that others are listening, talking to myself is what it feels like most of the time. I share my thoughts anyway, but love to have those of others. Our disagreement on this thread is just that, a disagreement, each with arguments justified from a particular perspective. It ought not to become a quarrel, and I hope won't.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #23 
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Our disagreement on this thread is just that, a disagreement, each with arguments justified from a particular perspective. It ought not to become a quarrel, and I hope won't.


Exactly.  There are a few things we've all disagreed on throughout this forum.  Disagreeing on such things only makes the forum more interesting.  I don't see why occasional disagreements should cause one or the other of us to leave, especially over issues like this which are entirely a family concern for the Serbian royals.

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Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Vozd

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Reply with quote  #24 
I know that other members of the family like Prince Vladimir are furious about all this. They were never even consulted by Prince Alexander about the bringing back of Queen Marija who was equally the grandmother of Vladimir. All this cloak and dagger business has been enacted behind the backs of the other blood members of the royal family and has been done together with a blessing from a republican government so that Alexander can look like he is good with them and will get funding for his life in a palace that he refuses to allow any other members of the royal family to live in although he is a minor share holder. This is because his father, king Peter the second wrote his own son out of his will. Vladimir has publicly said that it is not the right time for all of this whilst the Serbs are still suffering and that is why he is not bringing back his father at this time.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
All this cloak and dagger business has been enacted behind the backs of the other blood members of the royal family and has been done together with a blessing from a republican government so that Alexander can look like he is good with them and will get funding for his life in a palace that he refuses to allow any other members of the royal family to live in although he is a minor share holder.



This is a strange argument.  Crown Prince Alexander is the heir to the Kingdom of Serbia and the Royal House of Yugoslavia, and hardly a "minor share holder".  If Serbia was still a monarchy he'd be the one living there, not all the Karadjodjevics.  That's like saying every single member of the Windsor family should be living in Buckingham Palace (which is a great deal larger than both the Royal and White Palaces in the Dedinje compound combined).

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #26 
Amid all the excitement of the instalation of King Willem Alexander of the Netherlands, little attention was given another significant royal event across the continent from Amsterdam.  The earthly remains of Queen Maria of Yugoslavia were repatriated to Belgrade and have been placed in the Chapel of St. Andrew at the Royal Palace in Belgrade next to the coffin of her son King Peter II.  The remains of Queen Maria were disentered from the royal burial ground at Frogmore, Windsor, and flown to Belgrade where her coffin was received by throngs of admirers.  Crown Prince Alexander, his wife Crown Princess Katherine, his sons Prince Peter, Prince Philip and his cousins, Princess Katarina, Prince Dimitri, Princess Lavinia attended a memorial for the late Queen at the Serbian Orthodox Church of St. Sava in London before the late queen's coffin was flown to Belgrade. 

King Peter II, his mother Queen Maria, and his wife Queen Alexandra, will be buried at the Karadjordjevic family crypts at the Church of St. George at Oplenac.  The Republic of Serbia has announced that it will give the King and Queens a full state funeral.

http://www.royalfamily.org/?178,en_hm-queen-maria-remains-repatriated-to-serbia

http://www.royalfamily.org/?177,en_hm-queen-maria-memorial-london-church-service-prior-to-repatriation-to-serbia

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #27 
The remains of Queen Alexandra of Yugoslavia are on their way to Belgrade where they will lie in state in the Chapel of St. Andrew the First Called at the royal palace.  Later this month, the government of Serbia will accord a full state funeral for King Peter II, Queen Alexandra his wife, and Queen Maria his mother (wife of King Alexander I) at Oplenac.

Queen Alkexandra was the daughter of King Alexander of the Hellenes and his morganatic wife, Princess Aspasia Manos.  She was the mother of Crown Prince Alexander II of Serbia who is the current head of the Karadjordjevic family.

http://www.royalfamily.org/?183,en_repatriation-of-hm-queen-alexandra-remains-to-serbia-on-may-9

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #28 
The earthly remains of Prince Andrej of Yugoslavia are being returned to Belgrade from Illinois today.  The remains of the younger brother of King Peter II and son of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia will lie in state in the chapel of St. Andrew the First Called at the Royal Palace alongside those of his late brother Peter II, his mother Queen Maria and sister-in-law Queen Alexandra until the state funeral later this month when they will all be interred at the Karadjordjevic family mausoleum at the Church of St. George of Oplenac.

Prince Andrej (Andrew) of Yugoslavia was married first to Princess Christina Margarethe of Hesse (daughter of Prince Christoph of Hesse and Princess Sophie of Greece and Denmark).  After he divorced Princess Christina Margarethe, he went on to marry Princess Kira of Leiningen (daughter of Prince Karl of Leiningen and Grand Duchess Maria Kirilovna Romanova, paternal aunt and namesake to the current head of the Russian Imperial Family Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna).  After his second divorce, Prince Andrej went on to marry Eva Maria Andjelkovich.  From his first two marriages, Prince Andrej had five children, Princess Maria Tatiana, Prince Christopher, Princess Lavinia Maria, Prince Karl Vladimir, and Prince Dimitri.

http://www.royalfamily.org/?189,en_hrh-prince-andrej-returns-to-serbia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Andrew_of_Yugoslavia


This state funeral of a King, two Queens and a Prince is gearing up to being one of the more significant royal events of the year.  

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #29 
Prince Andrej of Yugoslavia's remains have returned to Belgrade and are lying in state at the royal palace there along side those of his brother, King Peter II, their mother Queen Maria, and King Peter's wife Queen Alexandra.  Patriarch Irinej has conducted a memorial service in the presence of many members of the extended royal family of Serbia and government officials.  Article and many great photographs from the official website of Crown Prince Alexander below.

http://www.royalfamily.org/?191,en_hrh-prince-andrej-returns-to-serbia#display[pp_gal]/11/

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #30 
The Royal Family of Serbia has issued the program for the upcoming state funeral for their late majesties, King Peter II, Queen Alexandra, Queen Maria of Yugoslavia and his late highness Prince Andrej (Andrew).  Ceremonies will begin on Friday in Belgrade and culminate in the re-internment of the four royals on Sunday in Oplenac.

http://www.royalfamily.org/?199,en_state-funeral-of-hm-king-peter-ii-hm-queen-alexandra-hm-queen-maria-and-hrh-prince-andrej-on-sunday-26-may-2013

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
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