Monarchy Forum
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 54 of 55     «   Prev   51   52   53   54   55   Next
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #796 
It seems reasonable, but I wonder if it will get anywhere. The parliament has undermined his negotiating position, by making it clear we won't leave without EU approval. Besides, Johnson still has to get agreement from a divided parliament.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #797 
Here's an interesting article on the predictable split in the Europhile rump in parliament:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/brexit-negotiations-boris-johnson-stymied-anti-brexit-coalition-split-on-new-elections/

As it notes, again we actually should be thankful for Corbyn. His lukewarm Europhilism has kept the Labour party in a no man's land between leave and remain and his general unpalatability, to both the public and the parliament, are making it especially hard for the rump to unify.

Interestingly, that article also notes that the parliament is worried Johnson will use orders in council to pass Brexit if his new deal is rejected, either by the EU or parliament. I hope so.

Finally, the article quotes Paul Goodman on Johnson needing to achieve Brexit before an election, but needing an election to achieve Brexit. However, I'm not so sure about this. Even leaving aside the issue of him using orders in council, I think that the failure to have yet achieved Brexit might be worth overlooked if he stays strong. If it is clear he wishes to achieve it and will if given a chance, but is being frustrated by the parliament, then he might not be punished at an election. Presumably, this is one big reason the parliament is scared of an election.
azadi

Registered:
Posts: 389
Reply with quote  #798 
Boris Johnson appears to finally accept a customs border in the Irish Sea.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/11/brexit-barnier-and-barclay-hold-talks-after-positive-johnson-varadkar-meeting-on-potential-deal-live-news
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #799 
After the EU's high-handed dismissal of Johnson's eminently sensible alternative, I hope he hasn't just caved. It would not only be bad for Britain, but might well see the end of the Tories. The Tories need to stay strong on Brexit, just to survive.
azadi

Registered:
Posts: 389
Reply with quote  #800 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
After the EU's high-handed dismissal of Johnson's eminently sensible alternative, I hope he hasn't just caved. It would not only be bad for Britain, but might well see the end of the Tories. The Tories need to stay strong on Brexit, just to survive.

Accepting a customs border in the Irish Sea is necessary in order to get a deal with EU, because the EU will never accept a deal, in which Ulster leaves the EU customs union. Boris Johnson will still have delivered a better deal than May, if he accepts a customs border in the Irish Sea, because Great Britain will be able to strike independent trade deals, unlike under May's deal.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #801 
What's the difference between May's deal and what's being talked of here? The EU has given no real sign they have budged. It seems Johnson who may have. I'd take May's deal if it's looks like the best route to just leave the EU, but it was a terrible deal and Johnson will likely be punished, by his MPs and voters, for settling for it. Again, it's worth pointing out it is the EU that would force a hard border if there is no deal, not Britain. It is the single market that requires it. Britain could simply have free trade across the Irish border.
azadi

Registered:
Posts: 389
Reply with quote  #802 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
What's the difference between May's deal and what's being talked of here? The EU has given no real sign they have budged. It seems Johnson who may have. I'd take May's deal if it's looks like the best route to just leave the EU, but it was a terrible deal and Johnson will likely be punished, by his MPs and voters, for settling for it. Again, it's worth pointing out it is the EU that would force a hard border if there is no deal, not Britain. It is the single market that requires it. Britain could simply have free trade across the Irish border.

The difference between May's deal and a customs border in the Irish Sea is, that Great Britain would remain in a customs union with the EU, like Turkey is, according to May's deal, while a customs border in the Irish Sea means, that Great Britain leaves the EU customs union, while Ulster stays in the EU customs union. A customs border in the Irish Sea will allow Great Britain to strike independent trade teals. Boris Johnson and the ERG rejected May's deal, because they wanted Great Britain to be able to strike independent trade deals.
I agree, that the EU demanding Ulster staying in the EU customs union is wrong, and that the EU ought to have accepted Boris Johnson's proposal, according to which Ulster would have stayed aligned to the single market on goods, while remaining part of the customs territory of the UK. But the EU will sadly never accept Ulster leaving the EU customs union, and you ought to accept a customs border in the Irish Sea in order to avoid a disastrous no deal Brexit while being able to strike independent trade deals. Ulster will remain part of the UK, even if a customs border is established in the Irish Sea. 
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #803 
I would take the EU's deal if it's needed, though I would be happier with no deal. I strongly doubt it will do more than cause some short term dislocation. The idea it will be disastrous seems highly dubious to me. For Johnson, weakness on Brexit will likely be politically fatal. How can a deal, of whatever quality, be achieved by the end of the month. Johnson has pledged to get us out by then. It's hard to see how he and the Tories survive if he doesn't look like he is abiding by that.
azadi

Registered:
Posts: 389
Reply with quote  #804 
Boris Johnson has agreed to a customs border in the Irish Sea:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/16/brexit-talks-continue-after-boris-johnson-makes-concessions-on-irish-border


azadi

Registered:
Posts: 389
Reply with quote  #805 
The DUP once again tries to prevent a customs border in the Irish Sea. They are harming the rest of Great Britain for the sake of Protestant sectarianism. It's understandable, that they are opposed to a customs border in the Irish Sea, but triggering a disastrous no deal Brexit for the sake of preventing a customs border in the Irish Sea is utterly wrong. They are acting against the national interest of Great Britain.  
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/16/brexit-talks-on-knife-edge-as-dup-voices-fears-for-union

Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #806 
Please stop pushing remain propaganda. And stop linking to the Guardian, for heck's sake. Once is okay, but you just did it twice in a row. A no deal Brexit is unlikely to be disastrous. That's project fear talk. As even you admit, there's reason to dislike a customs barrier between two parts of one sovereign nation. And, for the umpteenth time, it's the EU demanding a hard border between Ireland and the UK if we leave the EU with no deal.

However, as preferable as no deal probably will be to this deal in the making, the important thing is getting out as soon as possible at this stage. Any Brexit at all is under threat. We should all take the deal, assuming the EU agrees, which is quite an assumption, and leave. If they don't agree, then we should simply leave with no deal.
Ethiomonarchist

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,270
Reply with quote  #807 
Quote:
Please stop pushing remain propaganda. And stop linking to the Guardian, for heck's sake. Once is okay, but you just did it twice in a row. 


What's wrong with posting links to the Guardian?  Do they publish lies, or is it because you object to their opinions?  If it's the former then sure, but if it's the later you are overstepping.  People should be able to post from wherever they like as long as it's not from false sources.

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,269
Reply with quote  #808 
The Guardian is a leftwing, fanatically Europhile paper (it also has a long reputation for being sloppily written and edited, but that's another matter). If that's the position Azadi wants to take, then fine, but then he should say it clearly. The Guardian is not a neutral source on Brexit and to refer to it, and it alone, repeatedly does suggest a particular approach to the issue, or that one had a preformed view, say on the Ulster question, and went shopping for sources that support it.

Ruling out no deal is essentially a remain position. It means we have to take whatever deal the EU decides to give us, or doesn't, or we are stuck forever in the EU. I wonder whether Azadi thinks no deal is worse than no Brexit.
azadi

Registered:
Posts: 389
Reply with quote  #809 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
The Guardian is a leftwing, fanatically Europhile paper (it also has a long reputation for being sloppily written and edited, but that's another matter). If that's the position Azadi wants to take, then fine, but then he should say it clearly. The Guardian is not a neutral source on Brexit and to refer to it, and it alone, repeatedly does suggest a particular approach to the issue, or that one had a preformed view, say on the Ulster question, and went shopping for sources that support it.

Ruling out no deal is essentially a remain position. It means we have to take whatever deal the EU decides to give us, or doesn't, or we are stuck forever in the EU. I wonder whether Azadi thinks no deal is worse than no Brexit.

I support Brexit, because I consider national sovereignty very important. I want Kurdistan to secede from Iraq, and I want Germany to leave the Eurozone. But leaving with a deal is far better than leaving without a deal, because leaving without a deal will damage the British economy immensely. I will always support national sovereignty regardless of the damage, it will cause to the economy, and if the EU demanded Irish unification as a condition for making a Brexit deal, I would support a no deal Brexit, because Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the Ulstermen is unacceptable, but Ulster will stay part of the UK, if a customs border is established in the Irish Sea. Accepting a customs border in the Irish Sea is far better than a no deal Brexit, and it is also better than May's deal, because it will allow Great Britain to strike its own trade deals.
I want the EU to be dissolved and to be replaced with an organization similar to the EEC. I support the Single Market, which has benefited Europe immensely, but I'm opposed to the Euro, the Common Foreign and Security Policy of the EU and EU refugee quotas. European integration ought to be limited to economic cooperation, environmental cooperation and cooperation on transnational crime. I support Germany participating in European integration, but Great Britain ought to stay out of European integration, because Great Britain are culturally far closer to the rest of the Anglosphere than to continental Europe. 
Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,033
Reply with quote  #810 
The Guardian clearly does take left-wing positions. Nothing wrong with that, any more than with the right-wing slant of the Telegraph and Mail. Its Brexit coverage however is unbalanced, hysterical, shrilly vituperative and frankly not worth reading in my opinion. Still, while it does have a tendency to seize on rumour as fact, so long as the rumour supports its cause, it doesn't outright make stuff up and I wouldn't chide Azadi for linking to it. I would though point out that the Mail is likewise free to read and while downmarket compared to the Guardian is not down in the gutter with the likes of the Sun and Express, or Mirror for that matter, to name a left-wing rag. And its coverage while pro-Leave is generally more balanced, nuanced and reasoned than that of the Guardian on this particular subject.

I agree that opposition to no deal is code for opposition to any deal from people who don't want to leave on any terms at all, but are afraid to come out and say so in view of the referendum result; they want to overturn the latter, but without that seeming to be their aim. The deception however has long since worn thin. While a combination of EU intransigence and Parliamentary (and judicial) obstructionism means that we will not get the terms we might have, I also agree that leaving even on disadvantageous terms is better than remaining. If we remain, the Brexit wounds to the country's body politic will never heal. If we leave, they can begin to do so.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.