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DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #736 
The second point you make is rather fundamental in general and therefore probably not worth discussing at that level. However, I will say that in this particular case I don't see a contradiction between what is good for one's people and for oneself. Not all people need to have children. Perhaps this was different in the past, but with modern-day technology a population can be very well sustained when not everyone has them. I can see too little children being born as a problem (and therefore I think governments should have policies to support families), but too many of them seems equally problematic, since I don't think populations can grow indefinitely.

The first point you makes seems to simplified to me. There's also people who don't have children because they simply don't want to have children. If you are not into having children at all, how could that ever lead to a happy families? Perhaps some people don't have children because they want to focus on their career, but people who spend all their time on that can also make very valuable contributions to society. There's more than one way to do that, and people should find their own way.




Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #737 
On the one hand you are saying there are enough Dutch children, but then why are is your country importing foreign workers and their families to replace you?  

If I were a Dutch leader, I'd want my best subjects (the smart, responsible, and educated) to have children to maintain replacement rate and not need to import foreigners.   I might create a sense that it's a duty to do this.   Those who marry, have children, and raise them well should receive privileges and kudos.   Those who are able but don't should be reduced in status.  They need to prove their worth to the state or be marked as a selfish never-do-well.   Granted, there are sanctified options that might be accepted by society as an exception.   The monastic or clerical life, for example.   There could be others, but there remains a need to justify the choice to not foster the next generation of Dutch children.

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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #738 
Although it would be preferable to have no voting at all, perhaps only fathers in good standing should have the right to vote.  
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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #739 
I was not saying anywhere there are enough Dutch children. I thought we were having a more general discussion about the matter; the examples that started it were certainly not from the Netherlands.

I do not believe that we are allowing migrants to come in because there aren't enough children. Look back at the history of when mass migration started - it was actually in the 1950s (starting with workers from Spain and Italy) and then in the 1960s with people coming from Turkey and such. There actually were never more Dutch children than during the 1950s. The reason these migrants were allowed to come in was the combination of a booming economy and an increasing unwillingness to do certain jobs among the European population. Which you could certainly see as a problematic attitude, but I see no evidence of a link with a lack of children. You are right that the argument that we need migration because there are not enough children being born is sometimes made, but I sometimes feel it is being made by people who are already in favor of letting in anyone in the first place.

If you want more children, you can facilitate that in ways like the ones I mentioned before, such as creating a favorable taxation environment for families. Surely that seems like a much more positive method? Stigmatizing people because they don't have children sounds like a very bad idea to me. How do you know which people don't have children because they can't have them or because they won't have them anyway - that's usually private information. 

I question the assumption that people who have children are more selfless than others. People who have children these days probably do so because they really want to have a family, which isn't a more patriotic motivation than people not having children because they don't want them. 

Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #740 
In the aftermath of Parliament taking control of the Brexit process away from Mrs. May and her troubled government, there is speculation that the Prime Minister is preparing to resign.  Brexiteer leaders are now quarreling over whether or not to back her beleaguered plan, or not.  There is an increased fear that Brexit might be scuttled all together, or an calamitous no-Deal Brexit could occur.  Fasten your seat belts people, this could get very bumpy!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47704451

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-theresa-may-vote-result-deal-latest-updates-a8839781.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1105321/Brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-indicative-votes-commons-latest

https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/brexit-latest-26-march-gbr-intl/index.html

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #741 
Then there is this...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/24/brexit-petition-to-revoke-article-50-reaches-5m-signatures

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #742 
Parliamentary has voted and failed to approve any of the 8 alternatives to the deal offered by the Prime Minister which has already been rejected twice.  Mrs. May has offered to step down if her plan is approved, and it appears her plan will be put back in front of parliament on Friday.  Brexit is in complete disarray as some Brexiteers are wavering about risking an no-deal Brexit, and fearing Brexit might not happen at all.  The DUP are standing firm that they will not back Mrs. May's deal as it does not achieve the "Backstop" changes they want, and would in their opinion, damage the Union of Northern Ireland to Great Britain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47724037

https://www.cnn.com/uk/live-news/brexit-parliament-latest-gbr-intl/index.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/theresa-may-resign-successor-brexit-final-say-eu-referendum-a8842871.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1106295/brexit-news-theresa-may-resign-quit-brexit-deal-theresa-may-eu

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1106300/Brexit-news-UK-Theresa-May-Jacob-Rees-Mogg-vote-deal-European-Union-latest

https://www.cnn.com/uk/live-news/brexit-parliament-latest-gbr-intl/index.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47718367

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/27/mps-reject-all-alternative-brexit-options

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #743 
Mrs. May's Brexit deal has gone up in flames as it is rejected by parliament for the third time.   This means that a no-Deal Brexit will happen on Apirl 12 if the E.U. does not grant yet another extension.  There is a solid anti-"no-Deal Brexit" majority in Parliament, and they will be holding more votes on Monday about a way forward, but the E.U. granting a further extension is not guaranteed.  A "no-Deal Brexit" seems to be the most likely outcome at this point.  Jeremy Corbyn has said the Prime Minister should resign and call new elections.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47752017

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/29/uk/theresa-may-brexit-deal-defeated-intl-gbr/index.html

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1106954/Brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-eu-exit-vote-today-divorce-bill

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-no-deal-michel-barnier-eu-likely-stefaan-de-rynck-a8845641.html


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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #744 
One silver lining is that the grassroots Tory membership are finally moving against the oxymoronic Europhile Tories. Grieve is the latest to receive a vote of no confidence frm his local party association:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/how-many-more-rebel-mps-could-be-axed-by-their-constituents-tory-mps-opposed-to-a-hard-brexit-fear-new-deselection-moves-after-pro-remain-dominic-grieve-loses-no-confidence-vote/ar-BBVqbAp?MSCC=1554008892&ocid=spartandhp

Unfortunately, I believe the national organisation could stop Grieve being deselected, which he sorely deserves. However, I hope that doesn't happen. Obsborne is mad, in my mind, to think that would somehow help unit the party, when the disunity is due to the MPs being so out of sync with party membership and even voters. 
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #745 
It's very interesting what a low key approach is being taken by Jeremy Corbyn.  It seems to reinforce the opinion that he very much wants Brexit to happen, unlike most of his party in parliament, and that he's glad for it to happen under a Tory government so that he can look like a Remainer without having to do anything to further it.  I think though that he is not long for his post at the head of his party.  Mrs. May is essentially a "lame duck" to use the American term.  I wonder what will happen to the Tories in the long term... 

I think there will be some pretty big changes in the political establishment in Britain when Brexit hits.  

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #746 
So is this thing happening or not?   It's such a farce that Parliament has fought for centuries to strip away power from the monarch to now give it to Brussels and the EU.  That alone should call into question their legitimacy.   Monarch with sovereign power, bad... however, EU with greater power, good.  

EU delenda est.

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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #747 
I very much doubt Brexit will hit in the sense of much catastrophic or serious happening to the economy. At worst, there may be some mild short or medium term dislocation. I think it will actually be a huge relief after the and gloom of the Europhiles for more than three years now. The political issues surrounding Brexit, though, may be a different matter and may well cause a great disruption in the existing political balance, perhaps in conjunction with other causes.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #748 
The "Begging Tour" begins as Prime Minister May courts European leaders in hopes of being granted an extension on Brexit.  A terrible case of self inflicted humiliation on the part of the United Kingdom's political class.  The EU has expressed openness to granting another extension, but only if Mrs. May's government can come up with " a clear plan with credible political backing to justify the decision of the European Council in favor of the extension,” within 24 hours.  It would seem that Brexit has so far rather than exert British sovereignty, has instead resulted in Britain's Premier going hat in hand in supplication to the Continental powers.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1111783/brexit-news-theresa-merkel-angela-merkel-talks-brexit-latest-no-deal-brexit

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-delay-theresa-may-article-50-eu-extension-barnier-a8861256.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-theresa-may-speech-merkel-macron-article-50-delay-a8861016.html

__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #749 
We shall see today what the EU comes up with. As the Commons have both prohibited leaving without a deal and repeatedly rejected the only deal on offer, one cannot blame EU leaders for being completely nonplussed as to how to proceed. The betting appears to be that they will refuse the proposed extension to 30 June, but grant a longer extension of one year, terminable earlier in the unlikely event that Britain's parliament has a sudden fit of common sense and responsibility and allows an agreement to be concluded. I can't help nurturing a secret hope that sheer exasperation will lead to the refusal of any extension at all, in which case we will willy-nilly be leaving on Friday, dealless. It would be a lovely irony if parliament's multiply-directed blocking attempts were to lead directly to the outcome they least desire, and one which I believe would not be so disadvantageous as people think. But alas, this is likely to remain just a wistful dream.
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #750 
This has not been their finest hour. Legitimacy is at stake.
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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
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