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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #646 
I must say that my somewhat uncompromising attitude stems from the constant trashing of the heritage, values and institutions of Britain and Australia, and the undeniable inspiration and linkage of Scottish and Irish nationalists to it. They helped inspire a good deal of the ideology that undermined Britain's honour, glory and power in the world. They also provided the template for pretty much every "offended" minority group to emotionally blackmail Western democracies. As I mentioned the other day, almost every ethnic activist group hides behind "social justice" to mask its agenda of hatred towards the dominant culture.

There's no doubt Irish Republicanism provided the inspiration and template for the West's enemies to use. Or part of it. This is a fact that deserves to be highlighted.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #647 
Yes, you are correct about it being thy, though the usage isn't entirely regular (and also can depend on whether the pronoun is being used attributively or predictaively; thy and thine, respectively). I actually have a reasonable grasp of both Old English and Middle English, when it comes to reading, but my composition is lousy (Middle English is so lacking in standardisation it would be hard today compose in it authentically). Of course, Shakespeare is writing in early modern English, within the last couple of generations to really use the second person singular. It was archaic by the civil war. But the use of you is reasonably clear here, Hamlet is talking in general and not of Horatio's beliefs. Horatio and Hamlet are close friends and would not use the plural here. And just as important, Horatio shows no clear signs of doubt. And the our would be further support. Interestingly, some scholars have argued that the different characters' early discussions on the ghost include a presentation of the main views on ghosts at the time - Catholic, Protestant, and sceptical.

The philosophy would certainly be late scholasticism. The reign of scholasticism was coming to an end (at roughly the same time as the pronoun we were discussing, incidentally), but it was still dominant throughout the sixteenth century. There were circles of other kinds of philosophers, but it was scholasticism that was taught in universities across Western Europe.

Anyway, you are certainly correct that this all isn't important compared to the general point (which would today encompass science as much as philosophy). But this topic isn't really on topic, so I will leave it now.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #648 
You're right, thy and thine also followed the pattern of my and mine. Everything about English personal pronouns and especially their historic usage is always more complicated than it at first appears. You're right also that all this is not even tangential to the thread, though I never mind a good digression. The main news in Britain at the moment, and over the past several days and no doubt those to come, has been a terrible fire in West London which gutted a residential tower block and is known to have claimed 58 lives at least. There are all sorts of theories as to what happened and there certainly seems to have been a large amount of negligence involved on the part of the local authorities, with some culpability attaching to general public policy also, in that the tower appears to have been an entirely unsafe edifice which nevertheless continued in full occupation.

Inevitably, cynical attempts are being made to put the whole blame on the head of the Prime Minister for events which have their roots long before her government began. Which is not to say the attempts won't be successful, someone must always be blamed for any disaster, natural or man-made, and whether fairly or unfairly, and the more visible and prominent a figure is the more at risk they are. Anyway, this tragedy is yet one more element in the cloud hanging over the Government, and may yet prove to have a wider significance than the appalling personal losses that have already resulted.

I can't disagree with David over the relentless and wearying trashing of British history and culture. We should acknowledge the bad in them, of which there is some, but also celebrate the good, of which there is much. Unfortunately only the first part suits the aims of certain parties with a considerable grip on the media, which is why we hear so much about that and so little of what is positive.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #649 
Peter Hitchens on the hysteria about the DUP from left-liberals, and the new Tory coalition with Ruth Davidson's Lib Dems.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2017/06/peter-hitchens-let-this-blackened-tragic-tower-stand-as-a-monument-to-our-cheapskate-society-.html
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #650 
Peter Hitchens writes in a very sharp way, as usual. But are the Scottish Tories really much more progressive than their English counterparts? The viewpoint that he mentions on comprehensive schools does not seem to be very exceptional. On what issues do the Scottish conservatives differ?

Now, the next remark is extremely off topic here, but since Peter said he loves a good digression I'm going to post it here anyway rather then making a new thread . In the same post of Hitchens that you link to he also discusses the new film 'Wonder Woman' and my eyes almost popped out when I read it (and some comments below the post, too). Spoilers ahead!

Hitchens claims that the film is liked so much because of extremely feminist crowds that love the message that men are evil. Really, in a film with a female villain? About a guy that sacrifices himself in the end to save people? And the idea that men were needlessly being dicks to each other in World Way I is kind of true anyway, as Hitchens himself has advocated before.

Maybe the feminist crowd is worth some money, but the way to please millions of viewers is not to insult all men to make a good movie. Which is what I would say they did. Gal Gadot just nailed it. If anyone else has any thoughts on this please let me know, and otherwise feel free to just continue with Brexit [biggrin]
Peter

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Reply with quote  #651 
It wouldn't be fair to call Peter Hitchens a tedious old ranter who never has anything good to say about anyone or anything. It wouldn't be fair because he's not tedious, he's quite entertaining in his vinegary way. The rest of it describes him well enough, though. Couldn't say whether he was as wrong about Wonder Woman as he normally is about whatever his topic might be, since 1) I haven't seen it and 2) I have no plans to see it.

This is not because I have any objections either to comic book superheroes or to films about same, it's just that as a boy I was totally in the Marvel camp, Spider-Man and the X-Men and all the rest my joys, and Superman and Batman and the rest of the inferior DC herd viewed with disdain. As an adult, I have never seen any reason to change that stance. As DC and female, of all things, Wonder Woman was certainly never going to see any of my pocket money, and the former guards my wallet from her even now.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #652 
Dutch Monarchist,

The Scottish Tories are on the far-left of the Tory party, or at least Davidson is. They are indistinguishable from many Labourites and Lib Dems. Davidson is a committed Europhiles for example. It is true the Tories under Howard and Cameron embraced this kind of Blairite stuff. Support for grammar schools should be a basic Tory position yet even today they are half-hearted about it. The current prine minister tried to hide she went to one. But, I believe, Davidson doesn't even rise to the level of half-hearted support.

It is true the Tories have to reach out to the centre. But I for one don't think you do this by just moving to the centre (or centre-left) and trying to split the difference, which won't in the long-term. Of course neither can you just appeal narrowly to your base. What you have to do is have a vision based in your core principles but which can appeal to more than your diehard supporters. This is what Thatcher and Reagan did. It is, in a way, what Corbyn is doing. Of course, just how to achieve that is the hard part. My own idea is the Tories should start by embracing Brexit and taking over the mantel of the patriotic party from UKIP (in a sensible and not overly jingoistic way). Of course, this would be hard, given the Tories are the party of Heath, Heseltine, and Howe, and its parliamentary body is still crawling with Europhiles.

It is certainly true Peter Hitchens is irascible and contrarian. He will never cut the Tories any slack, believing they betrayed true conservatism in England (not without reason). Sometimes he let's this get the better of him. For example, after long warning of the dangers of a phony withdrawal from the EU, which sounds to me very like soft Brexit, he started criticising May for wanting to leave the single market when it looked like she was going to opt for a hard Brexit. The only explanation I could see was his now habitual need to always criticise the Tories.

Still, he is, in my opinion, a very good writer. He is probably the best journalist writing today in Britain, and his writing often moves far beyond the usual level of journalism. I also am in his debt for alerting me to the existence of Peter Simple.

I too haven't seen Wonder Woman. I must say I just don't get American comic books and superheroes. Give me the Beano!
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #653 
Thank you for the explanation, Wessexman. So are the Scottish conservatives also to the left of their English counterparts on economic issues, ethical issues and the like or is it mainly that they are more internationalist?
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #654 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4623474/Brussels-denial-EU-crisis-study-finds.html

The elites of dictatorships are usually in denial. The EU elite sounds awfully like that.

Queenslander

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Reply with quote  #655 
The EU is so far in denial that they can make for a new type of cataract, at least as the old joke sort of goes!
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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #656 
I had a good chuckle about this piece of over analysis of the Queen's fashion choices for her first "dressed down" opening of Parliament.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/21/europe/queen-speech-hat-brexit-trnd/index.html

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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #657 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchMonarchist
Thank you for the explanation, Wessexman. So are the Scottish conservatives also to the left of their English counterparts on economic issues, ethical issues and the like or is it mainly that they are more internationalist?


I'm not sure what their economic positions are. On social and cultural, broadly defined, Davidson is certainly on the left of the Tories and largely indistinguishable from Blairite Labour MPs and Lib Dems. There are, unfortunately, sizeable proportion of English Blairite Tories, including yourself two former leaders of the party, though.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #658 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
(A)s a boy I was totally in the Marvel camp, Spider-Man and the X-Men and all the rest my joys, and Superman and Batman and the rest of the inferior DC herd viewed with disdain. As an adult, I have never seen any reason to change that stance.


Really, Peter? And all these years I've thought of you as a level headed, highly intelligent man, but really, Marvel!? I was a poor lad, but I had a Mate, dead now these 50 years who had more pocket money than I. He bought every DC comic as they came out. We devoured them! Marvel? Pfft! Not worth our time![rolleyes]

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #659 
It's a few weeks old, but Daniel Hannan has a good article on the false equivalence Corbynites have been making between the DUP and Sinn Fein:

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.ibtimes.co.uk/this-opposition-dup-idiotic-1625849
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #660 
What Hannan stated above is more or less backed up by Melanie Phillips here:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/As-I-see-it-The-fight-to-the-death-in-Britain-and-America-497680

Quote:
The disturbing reality is that millions of mainly young Brits don’t care that he calls Hezbollah and Hamas his “friends.”

Such young people are either ignorant and ill-educated – or they too believe such terrorists are legitimate resistance fighters.


Labour has long embraced the notion that Britain has been a force for bad in this world and its power needed to be replaced by anti-imperialist and Third Worldist movements. This was manifested in support for "liberation movements" that were often Marxist in nature and employed terrorism as a method, which has since been picked up by Islamists.

This was noted even just after World War II:

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/opinion/zille-against-the-angels

Quote:

At this point you would be thinking, and with good reason, that this metaphor for Africa and the Intellectuals should not be stretched this far. Or could it? Might this class of intellectuals really bear some responsibility for the failures of so many post-colonial African states over the past six decades? Surely not.

Of course, F.A. Hayek did note in 1949 that intellectuals in the capitalist West had long been lending their “moral and material support almost exclusively” to anti-Western ideological movements to the East. For instance, news in the United Kingdom and United States of what was happening in the Soviet Union in the 1930s was heavily filtered by members of this class, given their strong identification with the socialist cause at the time. He wrote too that it was always only a matter of time before the views “held by the intellectuals become the governing force of politics.” Though this observation was never completely true of Western societies, with their strongly developed institutions and cross-cutting intellectual traditions, it was certainly applicable to post-colonial states. These were often led to independence by Western-educated philosopher-king types, and they remained intellectually dependent on ideas emanating from the metropole after independence.

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