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DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #91 
Peter, thanks for the answer. So if I understand correctly organizing a referendum itself would not be an illegal act forthe Scottish government, and that gives them a powerful tool to mobilize public opinion even if it has no formal legal consequences. I can understand the reluctance you and Wessexman show to subsidize Scotland even further, and that it should not really be needed. However, anything that could help keep the union together would be a good thing in my view. A part of Scotland may feel that it now has to pay the price for the vote of the English, and a gesture could help to soften that emotion even if we think the emotion shouldn't be there in the first place.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #92 
Your first point is true, except that a referendum known by its participants to have no legal force and therefore no consequences is thereby devalued. What I mean is, would people voting for separation have done so if there had been a risk of separation actually happening? Posing that question defuses much of the moral force of a pro-separation result. Of course, plenty of people would say that many of those who voted 'Leave' in Thursday's referendum would not have done so had they thought they were doing anything more risky than registering a protest vote. Perhaps they wouldn't have, but the difference is that the possibility was always there. In an unauthorised separation referendum, it wouldn't be.

In the interests of full disclosure, that's what I thought I was doing myself. But, while apprehensive about what comes next, I wouldn't change the result if that were somehow in my power, and wouldn't have changed my vote if somehow possessed of foreknowledge of the overall outcome. Turning to your second point, I suspect that I probably know Scotland better than anyone else on this thread, and love it more too. It is a beautiful country full of terrific people, which I have often visited and where I have many friends. And on the vast majority of those visits I have been staying with and going around with Scottish friends, so have seen Scottish life from the inside, as it were.

I have even been to two Scottish professional football matches! And that is out of a lifetime count of three such matches, unlikely to ever increase. But with all my love for Scotland and the Scots and my respect for Scotland's long history as a sovereign nation, one thing I neither love nor respect is the narrow nationalism and knee-jerk hatred of England characteristic of even otherwise perfectly reasonable and charming Scottish people. No amount of sweeteners would, I think, wean them off of this, and I personally wouldn't even bother trying.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #93 
I definitely agree that the SNP and its core supporters will always loathe the UK, and nothing is going to convince them otherwise. I do hope that the British government will try to find ways to keep on board those people who are in doubt, however. The results of referenda can be really close, and every vote seems worth fighting for. You are right that you probably know Scotland much better than anyone else here, and in the end the English will decide how far they want to go to keep the union together. I would be willing to go pretty far to keep my own country together, but that's a rather theoretical comparison...
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #94 
Actually, the SNP wasn't always like that. They were once a fairly broad church and its leadership was relatively moderate, but it also included extremist groups like the 79 Group (radical Left) and Siol nan Gaidheal (described by ex-leader Gordon Wilson as "proto-fascist"), both of whom were expelled by the SNP but the former (including Alex Salmond) would be readmitted. Under the influence of the 79 Group, the SNP has become more rabidly anti-British and increasingly under the influence of Irish Republicans, taking a large portion of the Catholic vote in the West of Scotland that was traditionally Labour.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #95 
Okay, maybe I'm not getting the full picture from here, but in a few hours my worries about whether Brexit will actually happen have increased quite a lot.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #96 
The dominoes could yet fall as more European countries get restless:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683224/END-OF-THE-EU-Germany-France-Austria-Hungary-Finland-Netherlands-Europe-Brexit
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #97 
DavidV, speaking about my own country I think this is not something that could possibily happen here. There is only one single party that wants a referendum on the EU: the PVV of Geert Wilders.

Foreign media are now saying that 'the largest faction in Dutch polls wants a referendum on the EU', but not only does it change all the time who is the largest party in the polls for the 2017 elections, being the largest party also doesn't mean as much here as it does in the UK and Germany. We have about twelve political parties, and even if Wilders would really get between 30 and 40 seats in our parliament that's still 25% of the seats at maximum. Every other political party except one has said they won't ever form a coalition with him, and every other single party has stated in the last few days that they don't want a referendum.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #98 
Here's an example of why Brexit is a good thing. Because the anti-British Left, globally, needs to be given a total rebuke when things like this happen:
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/jameson-hall-is-to-be-renamed--max-price
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #99 
Peter Hitchens has written another good article: "Boston, Lincolngrad: I saw the seething resentment. Now it is time to finish the revolution."

His thesis is that both the Conservative and Labour parties have been controlled by globalists who wanted Remain to win.   This fails to reflect the true divide in the country: so the parties need to reconstitute themselves.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3660282/Boston-Lincolngrad-saw-seething-resentment-time-finish-revolution-says-PETER-HITCHENS.html#ixzz4Cf4zaqTM


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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
Cenebrand

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Reply with quote  #100 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenebrand
And maybe this will lead to the formal demetrication of the UK. Which hopefully will spread to the rest of world and we can see the end of the dreadful SI.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1340899/shop-starts-selling-meat-in-pounds-and-ounces-after-britain-voted-to-leave-the-eu/


It's a start! Informal but I'll take it!
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #101 
I'm not sure if it only due to the media outlets I have access to, but has anyone else noticed the overwhelmingly negative response to Brexit?



Me too!
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #102 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/brexit-vote-is-an-escape-from-eus-politically-correct-fanaticism/news-story/b0077f40d2edeb19b6f8c82963957f77

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer Oriel
Britain broke free from the European Union because it had become a wellspring of politically correct fanaticism. The free trade benefits EU membership conferred did not require a political settlement that made democratic people supplicants to supranational demagogues. The cupidity of Europe’s self-appointed elite and the arrogance of its unelected bureaucratic class provoked the leave campaign. Brexit hails the return of democracy and reason to Europe.
 
It is difficult to measure the effect of mass movements in days or weeks. Be in no doubt ­— Brexit is not a single act, it is a mass movement driven by millions of people passionate about democracy and their contribution to its future. Every mass movement has an iconic moment — a picture that tells a thousand words. Brexit’s iconic image was rock star Bob Geldof on a pleasure cruiser with EU elites sticking two fingers up at a fishermen’s rally for Brexit. The EU’s let-them-eat-bread moment was met with a let them eat Brexit landslide. The largest voter turnout since the 1992 general election returned a decisive victory of 52 per cent for Brexit.
 
The hard Left has gone into overdrive to revise the reality of Brexit by framing it as xenophobic and demanding another vote. It is a pity it doesn’t reflect on why it lost the vote. The pro-EU rhetorical weapon of choice against Brexit was the race card. People supporting self-determination and sovereign democracy over supranational demagoguery were vilified as racists and xenophobes.
 
Labour MPs in the Remain camp routinely portrayed Brexiteers as racists. Right-leaning open border advocates claimed xenophobia was the motive force of the Brexit camp. An infamous advertising campaign by Saatchi and Saatchi for pro-EU group Operation Black Vote depicted a white male skinhead threatening a Hindu woman. The image ­of a black man threatening a white woman ­­has been used by white supremacists for decades and the newer PC version of the meme proved no more edifying.
 
The use of race as a rhetorical weapon to keep Britons beholden to Eurocrats appears fatuous in the light of truth. The demographic profile of Brexiteers is mixed and their reasons for voting to leave the EU appear varied. The Brexit campaign was led by Boris Johnson, a long-term advocate for free trade and open society. Early research on voting patterns indicate Brexit was borne of an informal alliance between working-class Britons and conservatives, as well as people of diverse faiths. Preliminary Ashcroft polling indicates a smaller difference between the voting pattern of people who support mainstream Left and Right parties than anticipated. Among Labour voters polled, 37 per cent voted to leave the EU while 58 per cent of Tory voters backed Brexit. At the extreme ends, 96 per cent of polled UKIP supporters voted to leave the EU while 75 per cent of Greens voted to remain in it.
 
The anticipated gender divide in Brexit did not manifest. However, significant differences in the voting patterns of Britons emerge when data is disaggregated by religion and ethnicity. The most polarised ethnic vote was cast by people identifying as Black, 73 per cent of whom voted for Remain, as did 70 per cent of Muslims and Hindus polled. Britons classified as White showed a diverse voting pattern, with 53 per cent voting for Leave. Fifty-eight per cent of Christians, 54 per cent of Jews and 52 per cent of a small Sikh sample polled also voted for Leave.
 
The principal reason pro-EU voters opted to remain in the union was the perception that leaving posed too great a risk to the economy and jobs. Among Brexit voters, the main reasons cited for leaving the EU were that “decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK” and to regain control over border security.
 
Brexit signals the return of people power to politics. It would be an error to reduce the decisive victory for pluralistic democracy to a caricature of populism. The broad concern with EU politics is substantial. Its fatal flaw is supranationalism; an anti-democratic form of governance that superseded the transnational trade alliance that formed the basis of the European common market. The pinnacle of EU supranationalism is the European Commission whose unelected membership drafts the laws that govern member states. While legislative proposals are discussed in the European parliament, they are not drafted by elected representatives. As a result, the commission’s prosecution of open borders was perceived broadly as evidence of rule imposed by unelected bureaucrats.
 
The perception that an unrepresentative elite is ruling the masses without popular consent has proven disastrous for regimes throughout Western history. The EU’s transition from a transnational trading alliance to a supranational bureaucracy may prove to be its undoing. By embracing supranationalism, EU leaders flouted the basic principle of liberal democracy that the people should govern the executive, not the reverse. Brexit is a reveille announcing the dawn of Western Civilisation in the 21st century.
 
It has returned power to the people in the land of the Magna Carta.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #103 
"The EU’s let-them-eat-bread moment..."

When we post articles with positive references to the French revolution, let's at least properly criticize them...
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #104 
Well, I think the EU shows far more contempt for normal people than any monarchy ever did.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #105 
Here's an article with the most recent developments:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/uk-faces-brexit-crisis

Interestingly, it seems that these EU 'bureaucrats' who are so loathed by the Brexit camp may right now be more respectful of the will of the British people than the rulers of Britain, including people like Boris Johnson. The EU leadership calls for the UK to trigger the leave process right away, as I presume Brexit supporters would want?

Meanwhile the conservative party wants to wait for at least three months until its conference has passed before even beginning the process (we're not talking about the actual leaving yet). That would prolong the period of uncertainty surrounding the economic situation of the UK - not a good thing. Also, the longer the UK stays in, the longer its politicians can vote for laws which no longer concern the future of its country. 
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