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DavidV

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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/02/201322102345987766.html
http://opinion.inquirer.net/47323/the-sabah-standoff

Of the sultanates that exist in the mostly Muslim areas of the southern Philippines, that of Sulu is the largest and most prominent. The sultanate's historical territory formed the basis for Philippine claims to territory on Borneo. It was also the subject of a long-running succession dispute which I'm not sure has ended.
ReinoTion

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Reply with quote  #2 
It seems that the Sultanate of Sulu finally decides to reinforce its claim over the eastern part of Sabah, currently controlled as part of Malaysia even though it does not have its own sultan. After all those years of territorial dispute, the Sulu royalists cannot wait any longer. However, I still don't know who the true and rightful Sultan of Sulu is with so many pretenders claiming the throne. The most prominent pretenders are Ismael Kiram II, Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram (the head of the royal house), and Jamalul Kiram III (the person who leads the Sulu invasion force).
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #3 
I know, it's very confusing. But the sultanate still exists as an entity, like other subnational monarchies. And it is obviously of value to the Republic of the Philippines, for politicians to shore up their nationalist credentials through sabre-rattling. It's election year in Malaysia and mid-term in the Philippines, so no surprise.

Nobody knows who is the legitimate Sultan of Sulu, although one of them is ordering his army to stay on Sabah.
ReinoTion

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Reply with quote  #4 
In my opinion, the true and legitimate Sultan of Sulu should be Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram since he is the eldest son of the last sultan recognized by the Philippines government. All the other pretender are just greedy relatives or strangers trying to take advantage of the complicated situation. To prevent a possible war with Malaysia, the Filipino government should recognize the true heir immediately even if many people say Great Britain stole Sabah and gave it to Malaysia. This is the royal house's website:
http://www.royalsultanateofsulu.org/

About three thousand people voted on Topix (a very bad forum website) on this matter and 71% of them voted for Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram as the legitimate Sultan of Sulu.
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/weird/TANTCGDQKOM7L0769


DavidV

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Reply with quote  #5 
Would you propose giving Sabah all to the Philippines, joint administration, or reunifying all the territory of Sulu and make it independent?
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks for the informative posts above. Here's a rough outline of the history of Sabah, compiled from Wikipedia:

Up until 1658,   most of the northern part of the island of Borneo was occupied by the Sultanate of Brunei and the southern part was occupied by the Sultanate of Bulungan. The Sultanate of Sulu was an island archipelago, off the coast to the east of Borneo. Evidently, there was a rebellion against the Sultan of Brunei, or a civil war, and in return for military aid in suppressing the rebellion, the Sultan of Brunei gave the eastern part of his domain to the Sultan of Sulu. This area later became known as Sabah.

In 1851, Spain forced the Sultan of Sulu to agree to incorporation of his sultanate into their colony of the Philippines. In the meantime, Britain acquired sovereignty over northern Borneo, which included Brunei and Sabah. The Netherlands acquired sovereignty over southern Borneo (Kalimantan). In 1878, the Sultan of Sulu signed some sort of treaty or agreement with Britain in regard to their state of Sabah. The Madrid Protocol (1885) was a treaty between Britain and Spain, in which Britain apparently recognised Spain's authority over the Sulu island archipelago, and Spain recognised British authority over Sabah. In 1903,Britain signed another agreement with the Sulu Sultanate, in which they agreed to pay an annual sum of  about $5,000 to the Sultan. The wording of this agreement later came into dispute, probably due to differences in translation. Britain claimed the payment was for the "cession" of Sabah. The Sulu Sultanate claimed it was for the "lease" of Sabah.

The Philippines passed from Spain to the United States, and eventually became independent. Malaysia acquired its independence from Britain in 1957, and in 1963, Britain passed  most of northern Borneo (including Sabah), to the newly independent nation of Malaysia. The Sultanate of Brunei, tiny in size but possessing immense oil reserves, became an independent nation. In the meantime, southern Borneo (Kalimantan) became part of newly independent Indonesia (which acquired its independence from the Netherlands).

The Philippines has continued to maintain a claim to the state of Sabah, based on it's having been part of the Sultanate of Sulu (which now comprises a province of the Philippines). The Philippines, while maintaining the official territorial claim to Sabah, has actually made little or no effort to press this claim. Malaysia maintains that Sabah is an integral part of Malaysia, since it was incorporated in 1963. Malaysia has apparently inherited  from Britain the annual $5,000 payment to the Sulu Sultan, and has continued to pay it down to the present.

At present, northern Borneo is comprised of the 2 Malaysian states of Sarawak and Sabah, as well as the tiny independent nation of Brunei. Southern Borneo comprises the Indonesian region of Kalimantan.

Ismail I Kiram reigned as titular Sultan of Sulu from 1950 until his death in 1974, and was recognised in his ceremonial position by the Philippines government. He was succeeded by his son Mahakuttah Kiram, who reigned from 1974 until his death in 1986, also recognised by the Philippines government. Mahakuttah was the last undisputed Sultan. His young son Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram did not put forward a claim at this time. Punjungam Kiram (younger brother of Ismail I) had 2 sons, Jamalul and Ismail. Jamalul claimed the sultanate in 1986 (as Sultan Jamalul III Kiram), though he did not receive government recognition. Due to intra-family quarrels, he resigned in 1990. In 1999, his younger brother Ismail put forward a claim (as Sultan Ismail II Kiram). The intra-family dispute continued, and in 2012, his elder brother Jamal resumed his claim to the throne. Also in 2012, Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram (the son of Sultan Mahakuttah) finally put forward his own claim.

The small armed invasion force, which has occupied the village of Lahad Datu in Sabah, is apparently loyal to Jamal III, and is being led by his brother Agbimuddin Kiram (who must also be the brother of Ismail II).

It doesn't seem at all feasible to expect changes in international borders. Sabah has been part of Malaysia for 50 years, now. But for the sake of tradition, it would be nice if the government of Malaysia (which is itself a monarchy, composed of 9 provincial sultans, who each take turns holding 5 year terms as national king) would extend some degree of recognition to a branch of the  House of Kiram, perhaps as Sultan of Sabah, within Malaysia. The most obvious claimant to this position would be Jamalul III, or one of his brothers, provided that they would be willing to accept Malaysian nationality. This would be in accordance with Malaysia's own traditions, and  would seem to have no detrimental impact on the Philippines, which would continue to have sovereignty over its province of Sulu, the site of the old traditional Sultanate. Of course, Sabah ( a state of Malaysia) and Sulu (a province of the Philippines) would have to have seperate Sultans, as they are now components of 2 different nations.

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ReinoTion

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
Would you propose giving Sabah all to the Philippines, joint administration, or reunifying all the territory of Sulu and make it independent?


Unlike many other irredentists claims and disputes such as Transylvania, I don't take side in this matter, but I still prefer a peaceful solution. After all, this issue is Great Britain's fault since the United States reminded Britain twice in 1906 and 1920 that Sabah still belongs to the Sultanate of Sulu, but Britain ignored these calls and went ahead to give Sabah to Malaysia anyway. I have also heard that Malaysia has been giving annual payment to the pretenders of the sultanate, probably because they don't want the heirs to bring this dispute up again. Anyway, with these recent events, I am hoping both the territorial dispute and the question of who is the real sultan are settled once and for all.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #8 
And among the latest:
http://www.rappler.com/nation/22526-sulu-sultan-us-help-sabah
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/65391/sultan-of-sulu-seeks-unchr-protection
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/65467/sabah-standoff-revives-questions-on-who-is-the-legitimate-sultan-of-sulu

It seems the Sulu claimant doing this in Sabah right now has sizeable support behind him.
ReinoTion

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
It seems the Sulu claimant doing this in Sabah right now has sizeable support behind him.


The recent actions of Jamalul Kiram III and his supporters in Sabah won't make him more legitimate. After all, the Filipino government is, as of now, not recognizing any of the pretenders as sultans. Even so, the government releases the line of succession to the sultanate:
http://www.gov.ph/2013/02/26/line-of-succession-of-the-sultans-of-sulu-of-the-modern-era/
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #10 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Lahad_Datu_standoff

An article about this jiken is already on Wikipedia.
head_statue

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
Would you propose giving Sabah all to the Philippines, joint administration, or reunifying all the territory of Sulu and make it independent?


The solution is obvious. Divide sulu sultanate into sultanate of sabah and sultanate of sulu, one claimaint gets to rule in Sulu as a sub monarchy under the Philippines and the other gets Sabah and joins the other nine Malay sultans as part of Malaysia, so there would be ten malaysian sultans.

But now that people have died Jamalul Kiram just blew this up in everyone's face, the United States is no doubt afraid of a breakdown in relations between ASEAN member countries when it is trying to gain a foothold in the region.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/02/201322102345987766.html<br>http://opinion.inquirer.net/47323/the-sabah-standoff<br><br>Of the sultanates that exist in the mostly Muslim areas of the southern Philippines, that of Sulu is the largest and most prominent. The sultanate's historical territory formed the basis for Philippine claims to territory on Borneo. It was also the subject of a long-running succession dispute which I'm not sure has ended.


There were two sultanates in the southern Philippines, Sultanate of Maguindanao and Sultan of Sulu.

There was also a muslim kingdon of Maynila in the northern Philippines around present day Manila. It was ruled by Rajah Sulayman, if I remember correctly he was related to the royal family of Brunei. He was toppled by the Spanish conquest of the Philippines.
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