Monarchy Forum
Sign up Latest Topics

  Author   Comment  

Avatar / Picture

Posts: 312
Reply with quote  #1 
I have a question for which I have been unable to find a satisfactory answer. Perhaps gland The Baron knows.

 When, if ever, did Spain give up claims to the territory in North America that the British settled?

It seems to me that Spain claimed everything in the beginning, based on Papal Bulls, and then France and England proceeded to ignore this and established their own colonies in Virginia, Louisiana, etc. (The Spanish seem to have been in Virginia first.)


Avatar / Picture

Posts: 11,993
Reply with quote  #2 
Treaty of Paris, 1763 was when the Floridas passed to the British (in exchange for Cuba).

The British got the French lands East of the Mississippi at the same time.

The Middle 13 were by right of occupation/conquest and treaties with the aboriginal free-holders, (I think) but that right was recognized and became de jure in Europe as well with the treaty of 1763.

"In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas"

I am NOT an authorized representative of my Government.

Learn more about the Dominion of British West Florida at

Avatar / Picture

Posts: 312
Reply with quote  #3 

I've been digging around trying to find more on this.

It seems the Spanish were extremely reticent about recognizing anyone else's rights in the New World (except the Portuguese.)

Like you Baron, I like to study the local situation. Where I live, Pennsylvania, was formerly the New Netherlands. It seems the Spanish recognized the Dutch possessions in a "Treaty of Munster of 1648." I haven't foudn the exacty text yet and am not certain if this is the one half of that Treaty of Westphalia (which I've tried to read before but it goes on FOREVER) or another one.

I also found that the Spanish recognized the English possessions in the "West Indies" in a Treaty of Madrid of 1670. At that time the English had occupied the New Netherlands but I am not sure if the treaty refers to all of the Americas or just the Caribean Islands because the use of the term "West Indies" was not so precise back then.

The Dutch later ceded the New Netherlands to the English crown in 1674.

After that there is The Treaties of Utrecht but I haven't gotten into them yet and don't know what they say and, at any rate, the issue of the New Netherlands seems to have been decided by then.

What I was wondering was how the Spanish claims to Virginia and the Carolinas were finally resolved. Was it really hanging  all the way until 1763? Was there never some treaty or agreement settling the southern borders of the Carolinas and the Floridas? 

Posts: 7,514
Reply with quote  #4 
There were two 1648 Treaties of M√ľnster, one in January and one in October. The January one is the one you want, as it was between Spain and the United Provinces, recognising the independence of the latter. As regards the Americas, the agreement, I have read (I couldn't find a text either) was that what each party had, it held. I couldn't find any specific reference to the North American situation; all I read was on Surinam and Caribbean islands, plus Brazil where the Netherlands had a foothold at the time. These regions were then regarded as far more important than the immense wastelands to the north. Although this seems a funny way of thinking to us now, it made sense then.

Avatar / Picture

Posts: 312
Reply with quote  #5 

Thank You, Peter.

I've yet to find a text BUT I've found some more summaries and I am coming to the conclusion that the Treaty of Munster did NOT deal with the North American continent.

I am starting to think that The Treaty of Madrid of 1670 is what I am looking forward. Again, I can't find a copy fo the text but I have found numerous references to this being the treaty that "fixed the southern border of Carolina and Spanish Florids." The problem is this treaty seems to have been more important for the Caribean than the continent but I think what I am looking for is in there.

Now if only I could find it.

Yes, it would be surprising to some that the continent was regarded as having little value in those days. However, I live here and spend time in the outdoors (not as much as I would like) and I can see how it would have been VERY hard to settle this part of the world.

Thanks a lot, I'll keep looking.


HA! I found something. This is from an English translation from a collection of treaties I found online. 

"Moreover it is agreed that the Most Serene King of Great Britain, his heirs and successors shall have, hold, keep and enjoy forever with plenerary right of sovereignty, dominion possession and propriety all those lands, regions, islands, colonies and places whatsoever being situated in the West Indies or in any part of America which the said King of Great Britain and his subjects do at present hold and possess, so that in regard thereof, or upon any color or pretense whatsoever, nothing more may or ought to be urged nor any question or controversy be ever moved concerning the same hereafter."
--- From Article VII in the Treaty of Madrid of 1670

I had to type that in, I couldn't cut and paste. I also found extracts from treaty of Munster in 1648 and it DOES mention that the States (That would be the Dutch I assume) would continue to possess what they currently held  the West Indies, Asia Africa AND America.

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.