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azadi

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Socialism and monarchism isn't incompatible, because it is possible to be a socialist without being a Marxist. A society is an organism, and all parts of an organism must be treated well. Employers exploiting workers must be prohibited. The workers must be allowed to form trade unions and to strike in order to defend their rights. I'm opposed to free-market capitalism. I support strong state regulation of the economy, but I'm not opposed to private enterprise. I support university education and health care being free of charge, strong public welfare systems and state ownership of public utilities and natural resources. I like social democracy as an economic system, but I dislike contemporary Western European social democratic parties, because they are globalists, who support mass immigration, closer European integration and liberal cultural policies.
andrujsh

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Thank you for introducing this topic.  The term socialism has been waved about a great deal in the last few years (I am writing from the US) but I wonder what people mean when they say it.  What I gleaned from your statement that you see socialism as government involvement and/or management of the economy, as well as a strong welfare presence?  I ask because I think that real discussion takes place when we define our terms.
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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrujsh
Thank you for introducing this topic.  The term socialism has been waved about a great deal in the last few years (I am writing from the US) but I wonder what people mean when they say it.  What I gleaned from your statement that you see socialism as government involvement and/or management of the economy, as well as a strong welfare presence?  I ask because I think that real discussion takes place when we define our terms.

Yes, socialism is an economic system, which is about state control of the economy and public social welfare systems. In USA, socialism is often confused with Communism, but social democracy is a form of socialism too. Communism is about abolishing private ownership of the means of production, while social democracy accepts private enterprise, while supporting state regulation of the economy and supporting the establishment of public social welfare systems.
In addition, other forms of socialism exists.
Libertarian socialism is about abolishing private ownership of the means of production, like in Communism, but libertarian socialism is opposed to Soviet-style Communism, because they want the workers to control their companies directly, while state-appointed managers ran the companies in USSR.
Fabian socialism is a version of socialism, which originates in Great Britain. It is quite similar to social democracy, but Fabian socialism is non-Marxist, while mainstream Western European social democracy is a moderate version of Marxism. Fabian socialism reject class struggle. Fabian socialism wants socialism to be introduced from above by legislative reforms rather than by working-class struggle against the capitalists. Jawaharlal Nehru, the first prime minister of independent India, was a Fabian socialist. He didn't support abolition of private enterprise in India, but he introduced heavy regulation of private enterprise. 
Arab socialism, a version of socialism developed by Gamal Abdel Nasser, a former president of Egypt, is inspired by Fabian socialism. Nasser supported a mixed economy, where the state owns banks, heavy industry and foreign trade, while agriculture, artisanry, small industry and domestic trade remains privately owned. Nasser rejected Marxism, because he rejected atheism and class struggle. He wanted socialism to be nationalist and to accept Islam. A lot of Arab governments emulated Nasser's Arab socialism, including Gaddafi and Hafez al Assad, the father of the current president of Syria.
I'm a Fabian socialist. I reject class struggle, because I consider the nation an organism, and all parts of the organism must be treated well. I reject cultural Marxism, which is about atheism and opposition to monarchies and nationalism. 
Wessexman

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I think something like Distributism is preferable to either socialism/social democracy or neoliberalism. That is, an economic system built around subsidiarity, family, and community.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Wessexman
I think something like Distributism is preferable to either socialism/social democracy or neoliberalism. That is, an economic system built around subsidiarity, family, and community.

What's wrong with social democracy as an economic system? I don't support subsidiarity. I prefer state regulation of the economy. 
Wessexman

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I dislike social democracy because it is based on centralised state bureaucracy and has little regard for family, community, faith, etc.

I think all traditionalists tend to valur highly subsidiarity, because they value highly family, community, localism and regionalism, etc. There are some variations in intensity, of course, but it is an attitude we find almost as much in supporters of more autocratic or traditionalist societies as we do in supporters of more limited, constitutional, or liberal ones. You find it in European counter-revolutionaries, like Bonald or Maistre, or in Chinese Confucianism as in Burke or Disraeli. I don't think autocratic monarchies were about directing all aspects of social and economic life from the centre. These societies were still a patchwork of local and regional variations, as well as other social divisions. To the degree a monarchist or monarchy did become overly totalist, I think that was, and is, a mistske. If we are to have strong traditional families and local communities, these must need have a degree of authority and autonomy. To replace these lattet with officials of a totalist state, even if that state is a monarchy, is a mistake.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
I dislike social democracy because it is based on centralised state bureaucracy and has little regard for family, community, faith, etc.

I think all traditionalists tend to valur highly subsidiarity, because they value highly family, community, localism and regionalism, etc. There are some variations in intensity, of course, but it is an attitude we find almost as much in supporters of more autocratic or traditionalist societies as we do in supporters of more limited, constitutional, or liberal ones. You find it in European counter-revolutionaries, like Bonald or Maistre, or in Chinese Confucianism as in Burke or Disraeli. I don't think autocratic monarchies were about directing all aspects of social and economic life from the centre. These societies were still a patchwork of local and regional variations, as well as other social divisions. To the degree a monarchist or monarchy did become overly totalist, I think that was, and is, a mistske. If we are to have strong traditional families and local communities, these must need have a degree of authority and autonomy. To replace these lattet with officials of a totalist state, even if that state is a monarchy, is a mistake.

I support state-controlled welfare systems, because that's the most efficient way of helping the poor, and I support state regulation of the economy, because that's the most efficient way of preventing exploitation of the workers. But I support strong trade unions too, because strong trade unions are very important in order to fight exploitation of workers. I agree with you concerning traditional families being very important. Care for children and the elderly ought to be the responsibility of the family rather than of the state. In Kurdistan (I'm a Kurd), the traditional family fortunately remains strong.
andrujsh

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In the best of all possible worlds, I would tend toward distributism, but with some elements of socialism, or at least government intervention, in the large sectors of the economy.  Social welfare should exist, but at the lowest level possible, to allow for accountability (that is, local people should be answerable to other local people and should not imagine that there is a cornucopial honey pot sitting over the horizon.)  That being said, we live in a titanic economy, a kind of ecosystem and we must tinker with it gingerly.
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Andrew J. Shaffer
azadi

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Originally Posted by andrujsh
In the best of all possible worlds, I would tend toward distributism, but with some elements of socialism, or at least government intervention, in the large sectors of the economy.  Social welfare should exist, but at the lowest level possible, to allow for accountability (that is, local people should be answerable to other local people and should not imagine that there is a cornucopial honey pot sitting over the horizon.)  That being said, we live in a titanic economy, a kind of ecosystem and we must tinker with it gingerly.

University education and healthcare ought to be free of charge and funded by the state and a strong social safety net ought to be funded by the state. Public utilities (e.g. water, electricity, gas, railroads, airports and telecommunication) and natural resources (e.g. oil, natural gas and mining) ought to be owned by the state.
andrujsh

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I might support college education paid for my the state, but with the caveats that only those with high grades and proven academic performance receive this help; that would eliminate the claim that some people "deserve" an education.  Also, I would say that such education must be education, not a chance to party, explore yourself, etc.  The student enters a program and completes it.  If the student changes his mind, then he needs to start at the beginning.  However, given the human (and youthful) tendency to change the mind, I would support also a year of either employment, volunteer service, or military service, a time away from home, to see new things and get ideas as to what he would like to do or have aptitude for.
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Andrew J. Shaffer
azadi

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Originally Posted by andrujsh
I might support college education paid for my the state, but with the caveats that only those with high grades and proven academic performance receive this help; that would eliminate the claim that some people "deserve" an education.  Also, I would say that such education must be education, not a chance to party, explore yourself, etc.  The student enters a program and completes it.  If the student changes his mind, then he needs to start at the beginning.  However, given the human (and youthful) tendency to change the mind, I would support also a year of either employment, volunteer service, or military service, a time away from home, to see new things and get ideas as to what he would like to do or have aptitude for.

In Kurdistan, university education is free of charge, and it works well. 
azadi

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Aleksandr Kazembek supported restoring the Russian monarchy, opposed state atheism and supported the socialist economic system of Soviet Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lvovich_Kazembek

MatthewJTaylor

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Depending on how broadly one defines socialist, even I, a free-market Crown/Peers/Commons traditionalist could be considered a Socialist, so there's no inherent need for Monarchism to constradict with Socialism.
I wouldn't self-identify as Socialist since  it is only in the incredibly broad sense of concern for all levels of society, in particular the poor (both the government-dependant class and the working class) and the means by which I would attempt to alleviate their problems would be abhored by most self-identifying Socialists.
Indeed Catholic Social Teaching, which is perfectly compatible with Monarchism, is often accusef of being just Socialism with a Christian paint-job by its detractors.
Nonetheless, I'm not convinved that it's a good idea to try and form alliance between the movements given that self-identifying Socialists, azadi excluded, are generally anti-Hierarchy and therefore anti-Monarchy.

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Wessexman

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Another problem for conservatives and traditionalists with most forms of socialism and social democracy is that they tend to be very centralising, top-heavy systems that help to undermine Burke's little platoons, like family and local community, by wantonly invading their autonomy and functions. They are as bad as corporate-capitalism (which itself is hardly a truly small state system). There are versions of socialism that don't, like guild socialism or that associated with E. F. Schumacher and Leopold Kohr, but these are rare.

By the way, I don't think Bernie Sanders is a moderate by any measure. He honeymooned in the USSR. And whatever you think about the end goals of the likes of Corbyn, Sanders, or Warren, they are quite radical in their means. They don't intend to proceed cautiously, but to just spend and interfere left, right, and centre. Warren's plans will require something like thirty trillion dollars over the next ten years, if I recall correctly. That's massive. They all will have to raise taxes hugely, including on people relatively ordinary in their incomes. Sanders and Warren will have to make over the entire US healthcare system, including probably banning private insurance, as otherwise many doctors and healthcare professionals simply won't accept the lower rates on offer from medicare for all and it will be hard for many of those without private insurance to see a doctor.

Personally, I do think we've swung too far in the neoliberal direction, and I am willing to accept some social democratic reforms, if that's the only likely alternative. But they should be done in a careful and measured way, which is not what Corbyn is offering. Also, we should recognise there may be economic downsides, even excluding social ones. The more robustly social democratic nations have tended to have chronically higher unemployment than us or the US. At Sweden's most socialist, between the 60s and the 90s, it had no net private sector job creation. The economy basically stagnated. Also, they have high levels of taxation. Even people just above median wage in the Nordic countries pay a lot of tax (or at least Denmark and Sweden). They are also different societies, especially the Nordic ones. They're smaller and more homogeneous. In fact, one of the reasons for some of the lessening of the welfare state in these countries in recent decades has been immigration and the lessening of the homogeneity of these societies. People are less willing to pay so much tax for people who may have moved to the countries. Also, many immigrants take out welfare at a much higher rate than Swedes and Danes usually do. In fact, one of the hallmarks of these societies has been a reluctance of many people to use welfare unless they really have to - despite the generosity of the system, few people abused it. But there's evidence that this kind of ethic is far less prevalent today, both amongst immigrants and younger native Swedes and Danes. Britain is not like Sweden in 1970. It's more like Sweden today, and then some perhaps.
MatthewJTaylor

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Indeed, for Socialism to be something worth pursueing by Traditionlists, Socialism itself would have to so radically change focus and tactics that it would be unrecognisable by present-day adherents.
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