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azadi

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Pedro Sanchez, the socialist President of Government of Spain, hasn't managed to form a governing coalition, which means, that a new general election will be held in Spain on November 10. Pedro Sanchez refused to allow Podemos, a Marxist republican party, to join his government, and Podemos wasn't willing to support a socialist government without being part of it. On Monday, Pedro Sanchez negotiated with Ciudadanos, a liberal party, which are strongly opposed to Catalan independence and which accepts the Spanish monarchy, but the negotiations failed.
Pedro Sanchez, who is the leader of the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party (PSOE), a social democratic party, which accepts the Spanish monarchy, did the right thing by refusing to allow Podemos to join his government. PSOE and Ciudadanos ought to have formed a centrist government, which would have excluded Marxist republicans and Catalan separatists. 
azadi

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The Supreme Court of Spain has decided to allow the Socialist government of Spain to move the remains of Francisco Franco from the Valle de los Caídos to the mausoleum of Carmen Polo, the wife of Franco, in the El Pardo-Mingorrubio cemetery in Madrid. Franco's family is strongly opposed to the decision.
This decision is a victory for the supporters of the legacy of the infamous Second Spanish Republic. The Spanish left wants to destroy the legacy of Franco, including the Spanish monarchy. King Juan Carlos tried to unite the Spanish people and heal the wounds of the Spanish Civil War, but the left wants to divide the Spanish people and keep the wounds of the Spanish Civil War open. The democratic constitutional monarchy of Spain is a symbol of reconciliation after the Spanish civil war, because it combines monarchism, which the Nationalists supported, and democracy, which the Republicans ostensibly supported.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/09/24/inenglish/1569317904_371961.html

Respect the wishes of Franco's family!
Defend the democratic constitutional monarchy of Spain!

Peter

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Reply with quote  #3 
The restored Spanish monarchy is not Franco's legacy. It is the legacy of King Juan Carlos. The monarchy Franco 'restored' was a bastardised version of the true, ancient monarchy of Spain. It was the 1978 constitution which King Juan Carlos made possible that truly restored the ancient monarchy, with its roots going back to the 8th century. While it is plainly inappropriate for the remains of the dictator to lie in honour among the graves of thousands of his victims, whether this is a propitious time for their removal is more than I could say. It does though have to happen sooner or later.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
The restored Spanish monarchy is not Franco's legacy. It is the legacy of King Juan Carlos. The monarchy Franco 'restored' was a bastardised version of the true, ancient monarchy of Spain. It was the 1978 constitution which King Juan Carlos made possible that truly restored the ancient monarchy, with its roots going back to the 8th century. While it is plainly inappropriate for the remains of the dictator to lie in honour among the graves of thousands of his victims, whether this is a propitious time for their removal is more than I could say. It does though have to happen sooner or later.

If Franco had lost the Spanish Civil War, the Spanish monarchy would never have been restored. I prefer the current democratic constitutional monarchy of Spain to Franco's regime. But Spain wouldn't have been a democratic constitutional monarchy today, if Franco had lost the civil war. The Spanish left and the Catalan separatists claim, that the Spanish monarchy is part of the legacy of Franco. Opposition to the legacy of Franco is fueling Spanish republicanism. The democratic constitutional monarchy has been able to heal the wounds of the Spanish Civil War, but currently the Spanish left is trying to reopen the wounds of the Spanish Civil War.
Disregarding the wishes of Franco's family is wrong. If Franco's remains must be removed from the Valle de los Caídos, Franco's family wants to move his remains to the Almudena cathedral in Madrid, where the Franco family has a crypt, but the Socialist government are opposed to that solution. Opposing moving the remains of Franco to Almudena is petty and vindictive. 
Peter

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What about the wishes of the families of Franco's countless thousands of victims? Don't they matter? It's impossible to say what would have happened if the rebellion against the legal, constitutional, democratically elected government had failed. Except that decades of tyranny and oppression and appalling suffering wouldn't have. And the Spanish monarchy was after all restored peacefully after the First Republic, why could it not have been after the Second Republic also? And quite possibly a good deal sooner. It certainly was never going to happen during Franco's unduly long lifetime, he enjoyed being top dog far too much to ever raise anyone over himself.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
What about the wishes of the families of Franco's countless thousands of victims? Don't they matter? It's impossible to say what would have happened if the rebellion against the legal, constitutional, democratically elected government had failed. Except that decades of tyranny and oppression and appalling suffering wouldn't have. And the Spanish monarchy was after all restored peacefully after the First Republic, why could it not have been after the Second Republic also? And quite possibly a good deal sooner. It certainly was never going to happen during Franco's unduly long lifetime, he enjoyed being top dog far too much to ever raise anyone over himself.

I'm not opposed to moving Franco's remains from the Valle de los Caídos. I prefer the remains of Franco to be moved to Almudena. But the Spanish government ignoring the wishes of the family of Franco is wrong. They ought to find a compromise. I fear, that this ruling will embolden the leftist Spanish republicans, who associate the monarchy with Franco.
Do you honestly believe, that the Spanish monarchy would have been restored if Franco's coup had failed? It's true, that the Communist Party of Spain was weak at the outbreak, but the far left in general was very strong at the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War. Largo Caballero, who was the leader of the strongest faction of the Spanish Socialist Worker's Party at the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War, was a Marxist, who supported class struggle and who openly declared, that he wanted to eliminate the nobility and the bourgeoisie. The anarcho-syndicalists were strong as well.
I admire the Spanish transition to democracy, and I want Russia to emulate the Spanish transition to democracy, when Putin dies. The Spanish transition to democracy was a compromise between the Francoists and the leftists, and the democratic constitutional monarchy is the result of that compromise. The Pacto del olvido (the pact of forgetting), in which the Francoists and the leftists agreed to ignore the past and to grant amnesty to both Francoist perpetrators of repression and Republican exiles, is a fundamental part of the Spanish transition to democracy. The Socialist government undermining the Pacto del olvido is a bad idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_forgetting 
Peter

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Reply with quote  #7 
What would a compromise be? Putting him equidistant between the two locations? It seems obvious to me that moving Franco's remains from a prominent location far outside Madrid to a prominent location at the absolute centre of Madrid would be pointless, in fact worse than that. And his corpse is hardly being dishonoured by being reinterred alongside his wife. Franco actually had little to do with the coup, which did fail. Nor was he among the initial leaders of the rebellion that followed and eventually succeeded. With Franco at its head, having wormed his way to a position of supremacy amidst a flurry of suspicious deaths of rivals. I have no idea whether the Spanish monarchy would have been restored if there had been a different outcome to the rebellion. I am only saying it might have been, and quite possibly sooner, since in the history that actually happened it never was going to be while the dictator breathed.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
What would a compromise be? Putting him equidistant between the two locations? It seems obvious to me that moving Franco's remains from a prominent location far outside Madrid to a prominent location at the absolute centre of Madrid would be pointless, in fact worse than that. And his corpse is hardly being dishonoured by being reinterred alongside his wife. Franco actually had little to do with the coup, which did fail. Nor was he among the initial leaders of the rebellion that followed and eventually succeeded. With Franco at its head, having wormed his way to a position of supremacy amidst a flurry of suspicious deaths of rivals. I have no idea whether the Spanish monarchy would have been restored if there had been a different outcome to the rebellion. I am only saying it might have been, and quite possibly sooner, since in the history that actually happened it never was going to be while the dictator breathed.

A compromise is moving Franco from Valle de los Caídos to Almudena. It will satisfy both the wishes of the families of the victims of Francoist repression and the wishes of Franco's family. The Franco family crypt in Almudena is actually the private property of the Franco family. The Spanish government preventing the body of Franco from being moved to Almudena is a violation of property rights, and preventing Francoists from gathering in central Madrid is a violation of freedom of assembly.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #9 
That's not a compromise, unless a compromise has suddenly changed its meaning to one side giving in entirely. I think you possibly don't realise what a prominent and central location the Almudena is. It would be a gross insult to Franco's victims to move his remains there. And I suspect there would be more people wanting to spit or worse on the tomb than would wish to honour it. No Francoist party has ever gained more than 2% of the vote in any free election in Spain. The Communists he was so proud of having destroyed in contrast got over 10% in the 1979 election, the first since the dictatorship ended.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #10 
Surely, it is best for Spain to move on from this part of its past, and leave it in the past. The attempts, usually one-sided, to dig up this past seem to me misguided.

Franco was a mass murderer, there is no getting around that, and the coup was probably premature. On the other hand, I don't think the Republic can be entirely white-washed. There were ominous signs of growing far-left influence, including atrocities. Who knows what would have happened had the coup not occurred. Franco's eventual victory was probably better than the anarchists and the like, and certainly that of the Stalinists, but there were more acceptable Republicans, including Ortega y Gasset.
bator

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Reply with quote  #11 
as a monarchist i dont find republicans acceptable
azadi

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Reply with quote  #12 
Franco's remains will be moved to El Pardo-Mingorrubio on Thursday. Franco's remains will be interred in the tomb of his wife Carmen Polo. 
https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/10/21/inenglish/1571643949_049586.html

Here is a picture of the tomb of Carmen Polo:
1569334105_416487_1569334827_noticia_normal.jpg 

Peter

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Reply with quote  #13 
The dictator's remains have now been removed and reinterred. Let us hope that this will be the end of the story.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #14 
Today is the election day in Spain. I strongly recommend voting for a monarchist party to the Spaniards. The Spanish monarchy must be defended against Podemos (a Marxist republican party), and the Republican Left of Catalonia (a republican Catalan separatist party).





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