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Reply with quote  #76 
I did look at the suggestion, but unfortunately there was no way to add the undoubtedly impressive and interesting ancestry of Aerobindus Dagalaiphus to the chart, it just wouldn't fit. It did not include any rulers of antiquity, though, so it is consistent not to include it.

I have now made another addition, having discovered a further Visigothic King lurking in the recesses. This was Wallia, whose daughter of unknown name married Rechila, King of the Sueves in Galicia. His daughter, also of unknown name, married Chilperic II, King of the Burgundians, and his daughter Clotilde married Clovis and is credited with his conversion from paganism. From there proceed according to the chart, which I will make no further attempts to post though if anyone would like a copy please contact me privately with your e-mail address.

Wallia is even more ancient than the others, being a member of the Balti dynasty from before the monarchy became elective and near kin to Alaric, though in what way exactly we do not know. Interesting piece of trivia I hadn't known before and found out during the course of this; Louis is actually a version of Clovis. So if they were counted as the same name we would have got up to Louis XXII already, or arguably XXIII. Not, however, XXIV.

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Reply with quote  #77 
Originally Posted by Peter
Interesting piece of trivia I hadn't known before and found out during the course of this; Louis is actually a version of Clovis. So if they were counted as the same name we would have got up to Louis XXII already, or arguably XXIII. Not, however, XXIV.

I see what you did there, Peter.

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

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Reply with quote  #78 
Couldn't resist slipping it in, KYM.

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Reply with quote  #79 
Originally Posted by Peter
Couldn't resist slipping it in, KYM.

I caught it too! However, while I disagree, I am amazed that there was a bit of royal trivia that I knew that you didn't! I've known most of my life that Louis and Clovis are forms of the same name.

'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!

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Reply with quote  #80 
Not only Louis/Lewis and Clovis can be considered as different (more modern or ancient) forms of the same Frankis name Chlodovech. Also the latin Ludovicus, Aloysius or the modern German Ludwig could be considered other form of the same name (or, more correctly, names which share the same origin). I remembered that when once I visited Versailles I saw an latin inscription under an image (or statue) clearly of Louis XVI that said "Ludovicus Magnus".
I told it to my French teacher and she said that yes, Ludovicus is a latin form of Louis (of the other one, Aloysius, I am equally sure because I saw this name under an image depicting Saint Louis Gonzaga..., Sanctus Aloysius Gonzaga) 

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Reply with quote  #81 

Well, I knew about Ludovicus, Louis, Lewis, Lajos & Ludwig being different forms of the same name, but I didn't know about Clovis or Aloysius also.

I wonder if there's a Polish, Russian, or Ukrainian form.

Edit: Actually, checking 'google', there's also : Ludovik (Croatian), Ludwik (Polish), Ludovit (Slovak), Ludvik (Czech), Liudvikas (Lithuanian), and Luigi (Italian). (I hadn't previously connected 'Luigi' with 'Louis'. There are also evidently Ukrainian & Bulgarian forms, but they are written in the Cyrillic alphabet.

I imagine that 'Clotilde'  and 'Chloe' are feminine forms, also.

Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."

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Reply with quote  #82 
There's also: 
Albanian Luigj or Ludovik, 
Basque Aloxi or Koldobika or Luki, 
Breton Loeiz, 
Catalan Lluis, 
Danish Ludvig, 
Dutch Lodewijk or Lode or Lowie, 
Esperanto Ludoviko, 
Galician Lois or Luis, 
Georgian Khlodvigi, 
Greek Loudovikos, 
Hawaiian Lui, 
Hungarian Lajos, 
Irish Alaois or Alabhaois or Lughaidh, 
Norwegian Ludvig, 
Portuguese Luiz or Luis, 
Russian Lyudovik, 
Serbian Luj, 
Slovene Alojz or Lojze or Ljudevit or Luj,
Spanish Luis,
Provencal Aloys,
Icelandic Ludvik,
Latvian Ludis or Ludwigs,
Lithuanian Liudvikas,
and Swedish Ludwig or Love.

They all ultimately derive from the Frankish name Chlodovech, which means something like "famed warrior".

Louise is a female derivation of Louis.

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Posts: 7,516
Reply with quote  #83 
Ever wish you'd never started something? Nevertheless, I learn. I happen to know what Chloe means since it is the name of one of my great-nieces, and while female form of Clovis is a reasonable guess it's not the answer. It's actually one of the many names of the Greek goddess Demeter, and means 'green shoot'. Clotilde was as it happens the name of Clovis's wife; let's see, yes you are right on that one, if not a form of Clovis it has a similar root.

A name similar to another, like Chloe to Clovis, but not related is Theodoric, which has nothing to do with Theodore. It means 'ruler of men', and apart from the great Ostrogoth king of antiquity, a kinsman apparently of Aerobindus Dagalaiphus discussed in previous posts, its royal connections include the Welsh form of it being Tudur, modified to Tudor in English. Other familiar forms of it include Derek, Dietrich, Dirk and Thierry.

As for Theodore, it is Greek and means 'Gift of God', as our distinguished administrator surely knows. Similar to Jonathan, which is Hebrew and means 'God has given'. Nathan is related to it but John is not; also Hebrew, it means 'God is merciful'. One of the less expected forms of John is Evan, but although it is a nice name I don't think we've ever had a king or prince called by it. Next week, back to genealogy, if I think of a topic.

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Reply with quote  #84 
The Ethiopian form of Theodore is Tewodros, and we've had two Emperors of that name. 

Tewodros I, who reigned for nine months (1413-1414) is said to have been a saintly man.  The legends of how wonderful a king he was are contradicted by how brief his reign was.

Tewodros II reigned 1855-1868 and is remembered as one of Ethiopia's greatest Emperors.

The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)

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Reply with quote  #85 
Fascinating story. As far as I can make out Tewodros II was not of the Imperial lineage and would have to be considered a usurper. However, one gets a real sense of majesty and regality from the man and his story, and I can see why Ethiopians would overlook any minor defects in his title to the throne, as in he had none, and revere him as a great Emperor. I just wish Britain's part in the story was less discreditable; colonialist arrogance and bullying at its worst, I would have to say, mixed with a good dose of slovenliness and incompetence.

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Reply with quote  #86 

Perhaps not exactly genealogical, but some musings sparked by Queen Margrethe II's 40th anniversary of accession, on which many congratulations to Her Majesty. If it were customary these days to give sobriquets to monarchs, hers might be "Margrethe the rule-changer", since the succession law was changed twice in her lifetime. Once before her reign began, but for her benefit, so that she rather than her uncle Hereditary Prince Knud might succeed her father, and once during, in the recent change to equal primogeniture.

A further rule changed for her is that she was the first Danish dynast to marry unequally and keep full rights for both herself and the children of her marriage. Ironically, both her sisters married equally and lost their rights! In Princess Anne-Marie's case for herself and issue both, which was understandable as she was marrying a foreign monarch. In Princess Benedikte's case not for herself, but for her children unless certain conditions were fulfilled. They were not, so the place after her in the succession is occupied not by her children and grandchildren but by her elderly unmarried cousin Princess Elisabeth of Denmark, daughter of Prince Knud.

Princess Elisabeth is the last in line, the succession being limited by law of 1953 to the descendants of Christian X. Her brothers would have been in line ahead of her, with her younger brother's daughters and grandchildren, but were excluded (and deprived of their royal titles) for making marriages that were no more undynastic than those of the then Princess Margrethe and of both Crown Prince Frederik and Prince Joachim (twice), which had no such result. It all seems most unjust and arbitrary, but is the Danes' business, I suppose. There is a fascinating article on the status of Princess Benedikte's children here.

It occurs to me that I can throw in some genealogy after all. I said above that the present Queen of Denmark was the first dynast to marry unequally and retain full rights and titles. This was strictly correct, as a monarch is rather more than a mere dynast. Both Christian IV and Frederik IV married commoners while reigning. In Christian IV's case morganatically, and after his royal consort's death; in Frederik IV's twice, and while she was still alive. These marriages were obviously bigamous, but after the Queen's death he again married the second of his bigamous brides, Countess Anna Sophie Reventlow, and made her Queen.

Frederik had no issue that survived except from his first marriage, but one member of the Danish royal house is descended from Anna Sophie Reventlow's half-brother Christian (and, through another line, her half-sister Christine Sophie). This is the aforesaid Princess Elisabeth, through her mother. And therefore her eldest brother, who would be occupying the throne now had the rules not changed, is also so descended. The line from Count Christian is:

Christian Detlev, Count Reventlow
Countess Christiane Reventlow m Friedrich Karl, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön
Princess Charlotte of Schleswig Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön m Friedrich Christian I, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg
Christian, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg
Friedrich, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg
Princess Caroline Mathilde of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg m Friedrich Ferdinand, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
Princess Helena of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg m Prince Harald of Denmark
Princess Caroline Mathilde of Denmark m Knud, Hereditary Prince of Denmark
Princess Elisabeth of Denmark

Princess Elisabeth is also descended from several different illegitimate children of Danish monarchs of the period, as well as from Princess Louise Auguste, officially the daughter of Christian VII but actually, as everyone knew full well, of the Queen’s lover Count Struensee. I wondered whether she could add descent from any of the numerous children of Christian IV’s second, morganatic marriage to that, but it would appear not. However, descent from one of them is widespread in Europe’s royal houses, as I learned from the Wikipedia article on the third child of the marriage, Leonora Christina, a tragic and romantic figure.

Christian IV, King of Denmark and Norway m (morganatically) Kirsten Munk
Countess Leonora Christina of Schleswig and Holstein m Corfitz, Count Ulfeldt
Leo, Count Ulfeldt
Corfitz Anton, Count Ulfeldt
Countess Elisabeth Ulfeldt m Georg Christian, Count of Waldstein-Wartenberg
Countess Maria Antonia of Waldstein-Wartenberg m Ferencz József, Prince Koháry de Csábrág
Princess Maria Antónia Koháry de Csábrág m Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

Among royal descendants of Leonora Christina listed in the Wikipedia article were Tsar Simeon II of the Bulgarians, King Michael of the Romanians, Prince Hans-Adam II of Liechtenstein, Emperor Karl I of Austria, King Peter II of Yugoslavia, King Manuel II of Portugal, King Friedrich August III of Saxony, the late Isabella, Countess of Paris (and therefore the present Count and his children) and Princess Michael of Kent. I haven’t looked into Prince Hans-Adam and Princess Michael, but it was at once obvious that the others were all descended from the last union above and that Princess Maria Antónia was a likely route in, so I just had to track back from there. Dom Miguel of Portugal and the Brazilian claimants could also have been added to the list, as could the Duke of Apulia who is in line (and I would say next in line) to the headship of the House of Savoy and therefore the claim to Italy, plus the Duke of Noto who is heir to the senior line of the Two Sicilies. Always surprising what you find lurking in the recesses of genealogies.


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Reply with quote  #87 
It occurs to me that the above might be seen as being in some way snide about the Queen of Denmark, especially the first two paragraphs. It wasn't at all meant to be, everything I know about Margrethe II makes her seem an admirable woman and monarch, and Danish succession laws and attitude to royal marriages are their business, not mine. I just wrote about some aspects that interest me.

I'm not actually bothered by the recent change to equal primogeniture in Denmark as I am (though grudgingly accepting of it) by the forthcoming change in Britain and the other Realms. Firstly because I'm not Danish, I'm British, and secondly because the Danes regularly alter their succession law, what's one more change? We have not changed ours for over three centuries, and before that had a line of succession that despite various twists and turns was essentially unbroken from 1066. I do not like seeing what amounts to only the second change since the Conquest happen for what I consider light reasons.

The Danish is an ancient monarchy, but dynastically can only really be traced from Christian I (reigned 1448-1481). After the childless death of Frederik VII (who I notice also married morganatically while King, as his third marriage and in rather odd circumstances), Christian IX who succeeded him was neither senior agnate from Christian III, the last king from whom agnatic descent was available, nor senior cognatically from Frederik V, the last king from whom there was cognatic descent, discounting the putative descent from Christian VII through his daughter, which everyone did. His wife was more senior from Frederik V, but still not the most senior. But it had been decided that he was the most suitable person to be King after Frederik VII, and King he became, his line following him as I hope it always will. That was only in the 19th century, then in the 20th there was the change from what as far as I can make out was semi-Salic law to male preference primogeniture. That made an immediate difference, as it was intended to, and now we have the change to equal primogeniture, which won't but has just been done on general principles. The Danes' business, as I say, and once again congratulations to Her Majesty.

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Reply with quote  #88 
Not only do you do great sleuthing, you make interesting stories of it...

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Posts: 7,516
Reply with quote  #89 

These are the six Popes that I am aware of from whom descent survives, for 1-3 and 5 widespread in European royalty and for 4 and 6 mainly confined to Italian, Spanish and to a lesser extent French and Belgian nobility (see my earlier note as regards Clement VII, post #59, where I admit an egregious blunder as regards his posterity).

Innocent VIII


Alexander VI


Julius II


Clement VII


Paul III


Gregory XIII


I may in due course tackle the others, but for now I am going to deal with two of them in more detail than I have previously, bringing in some of the numerous kinships to other Popes that come with descent from these. The first, Innocent VIII, was born Giovanni Batttista Cibo (also spelt Cybo), from a family of apparently Greek descent. He would have to be considered a fairly dreadful Pope, corrupt, simoniacal and nepotistic. Obsessed with witchcraft, there is a story that on his deathbed he consumed the lifeblood of three pre-pubescent boys in a vain effort to prolong his own life, though one may be given leave to doubt this. What is known is that he dealt in slaves, that though he preached Crusades he took bribes from the Sultan to aid him in various matters, and that he appointed the infamous Torquemada to head the Spanish Inquisition, whereby that institution became a name of dread and horror.

His other legacy was his children, Franscheschetto and Teodorina. Descent from the former is widespread in European royalty. He, universally loathed for his greed, dishonesty and brutality, was made Count of Cerveteri and Anguillara by Innocent and married to a daughter of Lorenzo de Medici, the quid pro quo for which was that her 13-year-old brother Giovanni (later Pope Leo X, 1513-1521) was made Cardinal. Their son Lorenzo married the heiress of Massa and Carrara and her family name was added to his to form the Cibo-Malaspina line. Their son Alberico was raised to Prince of Massa and Carrara and married Elisabetta della Rovere, a great-grandniece of Pope Julius II and great-great-grandniece of Sixtus IV, and their son Aldemaro added a further papal affiliation by marrying Marfisa d’Este, a granddaughter of Lucrezia Borgia and therefore great-granddaughter of Alexander VI.

Alderamo and Marfisa’s son Carlo gained no new Papal relationships through his Genovese wife Brigida Spinola. Nor did their son, another Alberico, through his marriage to Fulvia Pico de Mirandola (a distant niece of the brilliant Giovanni Pico de Mirandola, who suffered as it happens at the hands of Innocent VIII, being condemned for heresy though due to powerful patrons he escaped the fire), but he did manage a further elevation in rank, to Duke of Massa. Their son Carlo II however married quite interestingly in this context, his bride being Teresa Pamphili. The Pamphili (also spelt Pamphilj) family’s eminence came from the election of Pope Innocent X (Giovanni Battista Pamphili, reigned 1644-1655). A great-great-grandson of Alexander VI through his daughter Isabella, he is notorious for how completely he fell under the influence of his sister-in-law Olimpia Maidalchini, widow of his brother Pamfilio, to the extent that she was said to be Pope in all but name.

Pamfilio and Olimpia’s only son Camillo profited mightily from his mother’s influence over his uncle, and married the heiress Olimpia Aldobrandini (a rare occasion of his mother not getting her own way; she opposed the match as the younger Olimpia was of a similar powerful and domineering temperament to herself, and she wanted no rivals in the family). This second Olimpia’s mother was a niece of Pope Gregory XV (Alessandro Ludovisi, reigned 1621-1623) and her maternal grandmother was a niece of Pope Clement VIII (Ippolito Aldobrandini, reigned 1592-1605). Teresa Pamphili, mentioned above as the bride of Carlo II of Massa, was the daughter of Camillo and Olimpia.

Their son Alderano married Ricciarda Gonzaga de Novarella, who brought in no fresh Papal blood though she did have some, including introducing a second dose of Cibo-Malaspina descent, but had one descent of particular interest, which was from Honoré II, first Prince (as opposed to Lord) of Monaco. She is in fact one of the two main ways in which Grimaldi descent has entered mainstream royalty, her daughter with Alderano being the Maria Teresa Cibo, Duchess of Massa and Carrara, who married Ercole III, Duke of Modena, their daughter Maria Beátrice in turn marrying Archduke Ferdinand and founding with him the line of Austria-Este.

Pope Paul III, born Alessandro Farnese, had two main family connections to the Papacy. One was remote, but the foundation of his maternal family’s fortune; his mother Giovanna Caetani was descended from Roffredo II Caetani, made Count of Caserta by his brother Pope Boniface VIII (Benedetto Gaetani, reigned 1294-1303), generally reckoned in a very stiff field to be the greatest Papal nepotist of all. The other was contemporary, and the foundation of his own; his sister Giulia was a favourite mistress of Alexander VI.

Other maternal connections to Popes included descent from a brother of the bizarre Gregory IX (Ugolino de Conti, reigned 1227-1241), whose preoccupation with sorcery is seen by some as an indirect cause of the Black Death, and still further back from Pietro Conti, through his son Filippo; Pietro’s other son Trasimondo was the father of Innocent III (Lotair de’Conti, reigned 1198-1216). The Conti produced no fewer than nine Popes, and Paul III was related in one degree or another to all of them. His interesting maternal lineage further featured Orsini blood, including from a brother of Pope Nicholas III (Giovanni Orsini, reigned 1277-1280), and, surprising as it may seem, descent from King John, through his daughter Eleanor who married Simon de Montfort, and also from a brother of Thomas Aquinas.

Returning to closer connections, though the favour he won from Alexander VI through being, as he was jeeringly referred to, ‘the Pope’s brother-in-law’ gave his career an early boost he was able, energetic and personally impressive as well as being of a wealthy and well-connected line, and doubtless would have prospered even if the beautiful Giulia had never caught the Papal eye. He was far from the worst man ever to be Pope, and far from the worst of Popes. However his determination to advance the careers of his four illegitimate children, and in particular his universally detested eldest son Pier Luigi Farnese, was a blight on his papacy and led to many of the problems of his reign.

Which is not to say that it was not successful, the determination that is (and to an extent the reign), as from Pier Luigi proceeded the line of Dukes of Parma whose eventual heiress Elisabetta Farnese married Felipe V of Spain and is an ancestress of all European Catholic reigning monarchs, with the sole exception of Albert II of Monaco, and all the major Catholic pretenders without exception, plus the Orthodox King Michael of the Romanians and Tsar Simeon II of the Bulgarians. In theory though not in fact she is an ancestress of Crown Prince Alexander II of Serbia also, and in fact of his sons, and the hoped-for birth of sons to the Prince and Princess of Prussia will eventually provide a major Protestant pretender of her descent. To be continued, possibly. I doubt I’ll ever get to Alexander VI, who would require not a post but a book to be written about him, as many have been, but the others should be more manageable when I next feel the inclination to delve.


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Reply with quote  #90 

An interesting and surprising descent, or route for it at any rate, for Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, with whom I long ago began this thread:

Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
Prince Paul of Yugoslavia
Prince Arsen of Serbia m Princess Aurora Demidova
Pavel Demidov, 2nd Prince of San Donato
Pavel Demidov m Aurora Sternjvall
Carl Sternjvall m Baroness Eva von Willebrand
Baron Ernst von Willebrand
Ernst von Willebrand m Baroness Eleanora Creutz
Lauri Creutz, 2nd Baron of Kasaritsa m Countess Hedwig Stenbock
Field Marshal Count Otto Stenbock m Countess Christina de la Gardie
Field Marshal Jaakko de la Gardie, 1st Count de la Gardie
Pontus de la Gardie, 1st Baron of Ekholmen m Sofia Gyllenhielm
John III, King of Sweden

John III was the second son of Gustav I, and became the third king of the Vasa dynasty when he displaced his lunatic half-brother Erik XIV. His own son Sigismund succeeded to Poland through his mother. Another thing he got from his mother was his Catholic faith, in consequence of which he lost the Swedish throne to his uncle, Charles IX. All subsequent kings and queens regnant of Sweden have descended from Charles IX, with the exceptions of Carl XIV Johan, Oscar I and Frederick I. None have descended from John III since Sigismund, and in fact his legitimate issue became extinct with the children of the latter. Nor I would imagine has any member of a European royal family until Prince Paul of Yugoslavia came along.

As an aside, Sofia Gyllenhielm was daughter of John III by his mistress Kaarina Hannuntytär. Her mother Ingeborg Aagesdatter was daughter of Aage Hansen, Lord of Bjurum, whose own mother was Kerstin Gyllenstierna, daughter of Kristina Bonde, daughter of Karl VIII Knutsson, King of Sweden. He had three reigns, the last of which was 1467-1470, and no subsequent Swedish monarch was of his blood until the present one, who is descended through his mother’s Danish ancestry. That is, albeit only slightly, an even longer gap than that our present Queen closed as the first descendant of Henry IV on the throne since Henry VI, whose second reign ended in 1471.

There are now other royal descendants of John III, in the shape of the daughters of Max, Duke in Bavaria. Including Sophie, hereditary princess of Liechtenstein, so the very remote posterity of John III will one day ascend a throne again.

Max, Duke in Bavaria m Countess Elizabeth Douglas
Carl Ludwig, Count Douglas
Archibald, Count Douglas
Ludwig, Count Douglas, 12th Count of Skenninge and Sternorp
Carl, Count Douglas, 10th Count of Skenninge and Sternorp
Vilhelm, Count Douglas, 9th Count of Skenninge and Sternorp
Carl Vilhelm, Count Douglas, 8th Count of Skenninge and Sternorp
Vilhelm, Count Douglas, 6th Count of Skenninge and Sternorp
Vilhelm, Count Douglas, 4th Count of Skenninge and Sternorp
Gustav, Count Douglas, 3rd Count of Skenninge and Sternorp  m Countess Beata Stenbock
Field Marshal Count Otto Stenbock as above

There are one or two other routes for Swedish nobility into European royalty, so it is vaguely possible that royal descent from John III is more widespread than appears above. I hope not in a way, as it would kind of spoil the romance of this gulf of years, but will be sure to ‘fess up if I come across any.

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