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MatthewJTaylor

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Sir Roger Scruton, Europe's greatest Conservative has been quite unwell lately.
I suspect most of us here are fans of his, and I would hope that we could all pray for his recovery.

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Wessexman

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It's a great shame. At least he lived to see his reputation salvaged, though some aren't that sorry.

By the way, his book on the New Left is excellent, as is his England, an Elegy and his early work on conservatism.
MatthewJTaylor

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
It's a great shame. At least he lived to see his reputation salvaged, though some aren't that sorry.

By the way, his book on the New Left is excellent, as is his England, an Elegy and his early work on conservatism.

I truly hope he lives to see the day of a truly conservative British government but alas I doubt it.

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azadi

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Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

I truly hope he lives to see the day of a truly conservative British government but alas I doubt it.

Claiming, that the Boris Johnson government isn't truly conservative makes no sense. Boris Johnson supports the monarchy, supports leaving the EU and supports economic liberalism. A conservative claiming, that a conservative government, with which he disagrees, isn't truly conservative, is wrong. I dislike British conservatism, because I'm a socialist and a Eurasianist, but I will never claim, that the current leadership of the British Conservative Party isn't truly conservative. 
I hope Roger Scruton survives and recovers. 
MatthewJTaylor

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Originally Posted by azadi

Claiming, that the Boris Johnson government isn't truly conservative makes no sense. Boris Johnson supports the monarchy, supports leaving the EU and supports economic liberalism. A conservative claiming, that a conservative government, with which he disagrees, isn't truly conservative, is wrong. I dislike British conservatism, because I'm a socialist and a Eurasianist, but I will never claim, that the current leadership of the British Conservative Party isn't truly conservative. 
I hope Roger Scruton survives and recovers. 

Boris Johnson is hardly a social conservative and that is Sir Roger's main political focus, not neoliberal economics.
Boris gives little impression of being a follower of traditional British Conservatism though he is clearly on the right.
It is possible to be right wing and not conservative, just as it is possible to be left wing and conservative.
Indeed even Sir Roger, who is both right wing and conservative has admitted sympathy for the Blue Labour movement, which is left of centre.

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azadi

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Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

Boris Johnson is hardly a social conservative and that is Sir Roger's main political focus, not neoliberal economics.
Boris gives little impression of being a follower of traditional British Conservatism though he is clearly on the right.
It is possible to be right wing and not conservative, just as it is possible to be left wing and conservative.
Indeed even Sir Roger, who is both right wing and conservative has admitted sympathy for the Blue Labour movement, which is left of centre.

I would like to know more about Roger Scruton. I have heard about him before, but I don't know much about his ideology.
I'm a monarchist, a nationalist and a socialist. I'm opposed to gay marriage and I want to prevent illegal immigration from Africa and the Middle East to Europe. Real refugees ought to be allowed to settle in Europe, but economic migrants must be prevented from settling in Europe.




Wessexman

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I don't think left and right mean much. I also don't think free market, or liberal, economics should be equated with conservative economic thought. The early conservatives, with the partial exception of Burke, tended to be sceptical of liberal economics. The classical liberals were the radicald of the day. Early conservative economic thought exhibited varying degrees of corporatism, distributism, agrarianism, communitarianism, and, to a limited degree and in a particular sense, socialism.

On the Tory party today, I think Johnson is the best leader since IDS, and the most conservative, but that isn't saying much. Johnson is still relatively socially and culturally liberal, and I don't see him making the Tories much more socially and culturally conservative, even on such popular issues as immigration. Having been reading Douglas Murray's work on the death of Europe, I find the Tory's lack of concern over mass immigration and integration very concerning. I suppose it is at least good they are planning to bring in an Australian style system thought. But that system hasn't stopped Australia having more immigration per month proportionately than Britain or the US, and ending up with 10% of Australians of Chinese descent, and rising, right when China is flexing its muscles in the region.
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
I don't think left and right mean much. I also don't think free market, or liberal, economics should be equated with conservative economic thought. The early conservatives, with the partial exception of Burke, tended to be sceptical of liberal economics. The classical liberals were the radicald of the day. Early conservative economic thought exhibited varying degrees of corporatism, distributism, agrarianism, communitarianism, and, to a limited degree and in a particular sense, socialism.

On the Tory party today, I think Johnson is the best leader since IDS, and the most conservative, but that isn't saying much. Johnson is still relatively socially and culturally liberal, and I don't see him making the Tories much more socially and culturally conservative, even on such popular issues as immigration. Having been reading Douglas Murray's work on the death of Europe, I find the Tory's lack of concern over mass immigration and integration very concerning. I suppose it is at least good they are planning to bring in an Australian style system thought. But that system has stopped Australia having more today immigration proportionately than Britain or the US, and ending up with 10% of Australians of Chinese descent, and rising, right when China is flexing its muscles in the region.

British conservatives traditionally support economic liberalism. Thatcher is a hero to most British conservatives. Rassemblement National, the party of Marine Le Pen, and Law and Justice, the ruling party of Poland, are national conservative parties, which support left-wing economic policies. Marine Le Pen supports nationalization of banks. AfD, a right-wing nationalist party in Germany, sadly supports economic liberalism.
I support banning African, Middle Eastern and Asian immigration to the EU with some exceptions. The EU ought to allow real refugees to settle in Europe, and non-European spouses of EU citizens ought to be allowed to settle in Europe. 
Wessexman

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Thatcher was PM only a generation ago, so that's a strange use of traditionally. I was talking about conservatism in the earlier nineteenth century, primarily.
Peter

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That's all very well, Azadi, but I fail to see what your views on immigration, gay marriage or anything else, all of which we are already extremely familiar with, have to do with Sir Roger's state of health. If you do want to learn anything about him Wikipedia is the obvious place to start. Since while I had heard the name I didn't know all that much about him myself I read that article when Matthew started the thread, and was left in about equal measure admiring and repelled. Linked from it is this illuminating interview from several years ago, in which he moderates though does not abjure some of his more repulsive views. Anyway, whatever my view of him I certainly do wish Sir Roger a speedy return to health.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Peter
That's all very well, Azadi, but I fail to see what your views on immigration, gay marriage or anything else, all of which we are already extremely familiar with, have to do with Sir Roger's state of health. If you do want to learn anything about him Wikipedia is the obvious place to start. Since while I had heard the name I didn't know all that much about him myself I read that article when Matthew started the thread, and was left in about equal measure admiring and repelled. Linked from it is this illuminating interview from several years ago, in which he moderates though does not abjure some of his more repulsive views. Anyway, whatever my view of him I certainly do wish Sir Roger a speedy return to health.

I admit that my views on immigration and gay marriage have nothing to do with Roger Scruton's state of health. I was replying to MatthewJTaylor, who claimed, that the Boris Johnson government isn't truly conservative, and to Wessexman, who mentioned immigration to Britain and Australia.
I'm strongly opposed to persecution of homosexuals, despite being opposed to gay marriage. I'm opposed to gay marriage, because I support the traditional family, not because I hate gays. I support decriminalization of homosexuality in Iran.
I don't support expelling African, Middle Eastern and Asian immigrants currently living in the EU, but I support banning further immigration.

azadi

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The Boris Johnson government not being considered truly conservative will be considered strange in Germany, France and the Scandinavian countries, because the Boris Johnson government is very right-wing by German, French and Scandinavian standards. The British political spectrum is heavily skewed to the right compared to continental European political spectra. The economic policies of Corbyn are considered extremist in Britain, but they are similar to continental European social democracy. The American political spectrum is also heavily skewed to the right. Bernie Sanders is considered far-left in USA, but he is actually a social democrat. Supporting tuition-free college education and universal health care are considered far-left in USA.

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #13 
Why have you taken over this thread with your own preoccupations? What does this have do with Scruton? Neither Matthew nor I mentioned economics, but we did mention other issues.

Again, it's also strange to me to use liberal economics as an indication of conservatism - it's in the name.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #14 
The idea of the "right" simply being a question of free markets is in fact one of Scruton's greatest enemies.
Whilst he himself broadly supports a free  market economy, he has worked hard to define a conservatism not based upon it.

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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #15 
Indeed, I recall in his early book on conservatism, he criticises laissez-faire to a degree. In his later works, like the reissue of his book on the New Left, he's less critical of it (he actually draws a lot from Smith and Hayek on spontaneous order), but isn't an unalloyed devotee. The slight shift in emphasis or outlook may reflect the change in British conservatives in that period (1980 to 2010s). Pace Azadi, the strong free market orientation of British conservatism is a post-Thatcher development. It wasn't the dominant trend in the post-war years up to the late 70s.
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