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Peter

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Reply with quote  #46 
So if Spain attacks Britain's territory and Britain defends itself, Britain will have started the war? Your logic is as bizarre as your fantasies invariably are. Like the one about Russia being a staunch supporter of national self-determination. Or, sad to say, the one about restoration of the Russian monarchy being at all likely. More happily, the ones about strange combinations of nations somehow contriving to enter into armed conflict are even less grounded in reality than is your norm.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
So if Spain attacks Britain's territory and Britain defends itself, Britain will have started the war? Your logic is as bizarre as your fantasies invariably are. Like the one about Russia being a staunch supporter of national self-determination. Or, sad to say, the one about restoration of the Russian monarchy being at all likely. More happily, the ones about strange combinations of nations somehow contriving to enter into armed conflict are even less grounded in reality than is your norm.

The EU will definitely side with Spain in a war over Gibraltar. Spain is a loyal member of the EU, while Great Britain is leaving the EU. I agree, that France, Germany and Italy participating in the war is unlikely to happen, but EU will likely introduce crippling sanctions against Great Britain. The sanctions will likely force Great Britain to cave in, because Great Britain isn't a great power, unlike Russia.
Russia supports the right to national self-determination in Crimea, and Russia accepted Kurdish independence from Iraq in June 2017, while USA and Great Britain opposed Kurdish independence from Iraq. Great Britain claiming, that the current inhabitants of Gibraltar are entitled to national self-determination, while Great Britain wants to deny the Kurds and the Crimeans the right to national determination, is hypocritical. Vitaliy Churkin, the late Russian ambassador to the UN, once, when Great Britain criticized the reunification of Crimea with Russia, advised Great Britain to return Gibraltar to Spain in order to clear its conscience. I'm advising Great Britain to support Kurdish independence from Iraq in order to clear its conscience, because Great Britain committed a crime, when it made South Kurdistan part of Iraq.
I don't want a war between Spain and Great Britain over Gibraltar, despite my support of the Spanish claim to Gibraltar, because nobody in Gibraltar is being oppressed by Great Britain, and the risk of abolition of the Spanish monarchy is too high. The republican current is sadly very strong in Spain, especially in Catalonia, and a Spanish defeat in a war over Gibraltar may trigger the abolition of the Spanish monarchy. Argentina loosing the Falklands War triggered the downfall of the Argentine military junta. The Spanish people ought to blame the Spanish government rather than King Felipe, if Spain looses a war over Gibraltar, because King Felipe is a figurehead, but the Marxists and the Catalan republicans will likely blame the monarchy, because King Felipe has been very outspoken on Gibraltar. If Great Britain looses a war over Gibraltar, Queen Elizabeth certainly won't be blamed. The government will likely loose the next election, and Brexit might be cancelled, but the monarchy will survive. If Great Britain had lost the Falklands War, Thatcher, not Queen Elizabeth, would have been blamed. Thatcher would likely have lost the 1983 general election, if Argentina had won the Falklands War.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #48 
Your habit of deleting your posts then reposting them if they haven't had a response is highly irritating. Please quit it. I didn't respond to the above first time around because it didn't deserve a response. I feel no differently on its second occurrence.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #49 
Spain ought to grant Catalonia independence, because Catalan republicanism is a cancerous tumour in the body of Spain. The Catalan independence movement doesn't merely advocate establishing an independent Catalan republic. It wants to abolish the Spanish monarchy, if independence isn't possible. It celebrates the heritage of the infamous Second Spanish Republic, and it opposes the Spanish monarchy, because it was restored by Franco, while ignoring the fact, that King Juan Carlos saved the Spanish democracy during the 23-F coup of 1981. I fear the Spanish political establishment, especially the Socialist Party, will sacrifice the Spanish monarchy in order to prevent Catalan independence. I will prefer Catalonia becoming an independent republic and Spain remaining a kingdom to Spain keeping Catalonia, but becoming a republic.
The Catalan independence movement is by far the worst independence movement in a European monarchy. The Scottish National Party wants to make Scotland a Commonwealth realm, and parts of the Flemish independence movement support Orangism (support for the Dutch monarchy). While Sinn Fein wants united Ireland to be a republic, it has never pursued the total abolition of the British monarchy. Sinn Fein accepts the right of Queen Elizabeth to rule Great Britain, while being opposed to her ruling any part of the island of Ireland.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #50 
This is becoming tiresome.  After having branded my first hand observations of Gibraltar's Britishness as "unlikely" and then arguing that a hypothetical invasion of Gibraltar by Spain would be supported by the EU because of a common defense pact (I don't believe there is a common aggression pact in effect) and additionally arguing that the UN justifies interference in the internal affairs of member countries, you have now gone on to say Catalonia should be allowed to break away from Spain to allow Spain to keep it's monarchy.

Gibraltar will remain British,  Catalonia will remain Spanish, Spain will remain a monarchy, the EU will not go to war against Britain to force Gibraltar's people to accept Spanish nationality, and the UN will not interfere in the internal affairs of member states.  What you have argued to the contrary that is what is "unlikely".  

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
This is becoming tiresome.  After having branded my first hand observations of Gibraltar's Britishness as "unlikely" and then arguing that a hypothetical invasion of Gibraltar by Spain would be supported by the EU because of a common defense pact (I don't believe there is a common aggression pact in effect) and additionally arguing that the UN justifies interference in the internal affairs of member countries, you have now gone on to say Catalonia should be allowed to break away from Spain to allow Spain to keep it's monarchy.

Gibraltar will remain British,  Catalonia will remain Spanish, Spain will remain a monarchy, the EU will not go to war against Britain to force Gibraltar's people to accept Spanish nationality, and the UN will not interfere in the internal affairs of member states.  What you have argued to the contrary that is what is "unlikely".  

Gibraltar is placed on the UN list of non-self-governing territories. I have never claimed, that the EU will go to war against Great Britain. I was claiming, that the EU will introduce sanctions against Great Britain, if Great Britain goes to war against Spain. The EU introduced sanctions against Russia after the reunification of Crimea with Russia. EU sanctions against Great Britain being introduced, if Great Britain goes to war with Spain, will be far more justified than the EU sanctions against Russia, because the Crimeans are entitled to national self-determination unlike the current inhabitants of Gibraltar, and because Russia has the strongest historical claim to Crimea, while Spain has the strongest historical claim to Gibraltar. Why should the EU not support Spain, which is a loyal member of the EU unlike Great Britain, against Great Britain on the fate of a UN-designated non-self-governing territory?
I don't consider Spanish rule of Catalonia illegitimate. Catalonia shares most of its history with Spain, and the Catalan language is closely related to the Spanish language. Catalonia isn't at all comparable to Kurdistan. But if the Catalans try to abolish the Spanish monarchy, Spain will be better off without Catalonia. I honestly fear Spain becoming a republic, because of the strong republican current in Spain, which is especially strong in Catalonia. 

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #52 
This must be what purgatory is like.

By the way, just technical note, isn't Catalan just a Languedoc language? It might be closer to Spanish than say Italian or Langue d'oil languages, but it is still part of a distinct branch of the Romance languages.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
This must be what purgatory is like.

By the way, just technical note, isn't Catalan just a Languedoc language? It might be closer to Spanish than say Italian or Langue d'oil languages, but it is still part of a distinct branch of the Romance languages.

Catalan belongs to the Iberian branch of the Romance languages, to which Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan also belong. But even Italian and French are closely related to Spanish compared to the relationship between Kurdish and Arabic, which are entirely unrelated languages (Kurdish is an Indo-European language, and Arabic is a Semitic language). The Romance languages are closely related to each other, just as the Germanic languages are closely related to each other and as the Iranic languages (Kurdish, Farsi, Pashto, Baluchi and Ossetian) are closely related to each other.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #54 
You don't half talk nonsense. Catalan is an Occitan (Languedoc) language, part of the Gallp-Romance branch of the Romance languages. Certainly Romance languages are related, but they are not usually mutually intelligible, any more than the Germanic languages are. Trust me. I can speak or at least read (badly) French and Icelandic/Old Norse, as well as Old English (and, of course, modern English). That is only a small help when faced with written Spanish, Italian, German, or Danish, and no help in spoken forms.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
You don't half talk nonsense. Catalan is an Occitan (Languedoc) language, part of the Gallp-Romance branch of the Romance languages. Certainly Romance languages are related, but they are not usually mutually intelligible, any more than the Germanic languages are. Trust me. I can speak or at least read (badly) French and Icelandic/Old Norse, as well as Old English. That is only a small help when faced with written Spanish, Italian, German, or Danish, and no help in spoken formas.

I have actually learned the Spanish language, and I can speak German. I know a lot about the Romance and Germanic languages.
Concerning the possibility of the EU introducing sanctions against Great Britain during a war over Gibraltar, it will only happen, if Great Britain tries to reconquer Gibraltar after a successful Spanish invasion of Gibraltar. If Spain manages to conquer Gibraltar, the EU will likely recognize Gibraltar as part of Spain due to Gibraltar being on the UN list of non-self-governing territories, and due to the EU wanting to punish Great Britain, if a no deal Brexit happens. Great Britain trying to reconquer Gibraltar after it has been recognized as part of Spain by the EU will be considered an act of aggression against a member state of the EU.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #56 
Now you know something else:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Romance_languages

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages



The EU is extremely unlikely to support Spanish aggression, which is what you are talking about. If Spain does invade, Britain of course should recognise Catalonia, the Basque Country, and any other part of Spain that wishes to break away, and make sure that happens, probably by not stopping at retaking Gibraltar. But this is all silly fantasy. None of it is likely to happen in the next fifty years.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Now you know something else:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Romance_languages

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages



The EU is extremely unlikely to support Spanish aggression, which is what you are talking about. If Spain does invade, Britain of course should recognise Catalonia, the Basque Country, and any other part of Spain that wishes to break away, and make sure that happens, probably by not stopping at retaking Gibraltar. But this is all silly fantasy. None of it is likely to happen in the next fifty years.

Most Latin American countries supported Argentina during the Falklands War, and Alexander Haig, the then US Secretary of State, wanted the USA to support Argentina in the Falklands War (I support the British claim to the Falkland Islands, because the Falkland Islands never had an aboriginal population.) I expect the EU to support a loyal member state against a country, which has left the EU. If a no deal Brexit happens, the EU will want to punish Great Britain in order to discourage other countries from leaving the EU. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #58 
Nonsense. We're, with all due respect, not talking about tinpot South American countries, nor Cold War PR. We are talking about one Western European country invading another. Neither the EU, including many of our of NATO allies, nor the US, will support that. I think it is much more likely Spain is kicked out of both the EU and NATO than the EU sanctions such unprovoked aggression. Anyway, if it does happen, here's to a rousing chorus of Els Segadors!
azadi

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Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Nonsense. We're, with all due respect, not talking about tinpot South American countries, nor Cold War PR. We are talking about one Western European country invading another. Neither the EU, including many of our of NATO allies, nor the US, will support that. I think it is much more likely Spain is kicked out of both the EU and NATO than the EU sanctions such unprovoked aggression. Anyway, if it does happen, here's to a rousing chorus of Els Segadors!

I don't want Spain to invade Gibraltar. I'm of the opinion, that Spain has the strongest claim to Gibraltar, but Spain going to war over Gibraltar makes no sense, when the current inhabitants of Gibraltar aren't opposed to living under British rule. The current inhabitants of Gibraltar being content with living under British rule makes Gibraltar different from Kurdistan and Crimea.
But I don't want to punish Great Britain, while the EU will want to punish Great Britain if a no deal Brexit happens. Why should the EU punish a loyal member state for reclaiming a territory placed on the UN list of non-self-governing territories from a country, which has left the EU without a deal?
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #60 
Because invading the territory of other nations unprovoked is illegal and not what civilised nations do. I wouldn't trust the EU. Look how they acted in the so called Turbot War. But an actual invasion of British territory is likely a step too far, even for them. The same goes for NATO. NATO supports its members if they are invaded, but presumably wouldn't if they launched aggressive attacks for no good reason. This is not how Western alliances usually work today. This isn't 1914.

The EU will want to punish us, or at least look like they are doing so, simply for leaving. The whole point of the EU is power goes to the centre and is never returned. I don't think no deal has much to do with it. I also don't think they will seek to punish us by supporting naked acts of aggression. I have a low opinion of Brussels, but not that low.
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