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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #121 
Okay, but you're neither Gibraltan, British, nor even Spanish. It seems rather strange to me to bang on about such an idiosyncratic and, if raised to a general principle, unworkable take on this issue. But if it makes you happy, go for it.

Also, not sufficient for what? I am simply criticising your claims. If they are simply personal preferences ("You wish Gibraltar to be Spanish") then I have little to say about them. But if they are claims of fact or right, like Spain has a greater right to Gibraltar than Britain, then I am free to point out where they err. You are welcome to personal preferences, just not personal facts or logic. This isn't really an Anglophile or Anglophobe issue.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #122 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Okay, but you're neither Gibraltan, British, nor even Spanish. It seems rather strange to me to bang on about such an idiosyncratic and, if raised to a general principle, unworkable take on this issue. But if it makes you happy, go for it. You are welcome to personal preferences, just not personal facts or logic.

My take on the issue isn't unworkable. I accept Gibraltar remaining part of Great Britain because of the right to national self-determination. It's a fact, that Gibraltar was originally Spanish land, and that's why I personally prefer Gibraltar being part of Spain. My main concern about Gibraltar is the future of the Spanish monarchy. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #123 
But saying it was originally Spanish land, as if that alone gives Spain the greater right to it, precisely implies the unworkable position I was referring to. Half the world was owned by other countries at one point, often for long periods. That doesn't, on its own, mean that such territory isn't legitimately owned by its current owners. To suggest otherwise would cause geopolitical chaos. Gibraltar has been British for three hundred years. That, absent other considerations (and I agree that self-determination matters even more here) would give Britain a greater right to it today than Spain's historic, though shorter, ownership. So, you are free to say you prefer Spain to own Gibraltar, but not that Spain has a better right to it.

The stuff about the Spanish monarchy is so speculative it's silly to dwell on it. There's highly unlikely to be a war, and such a war need not see the end of the Spanish monarchy anyway. It could also be solved best by getting the Spaniards to act like adults and give up their pretensions to Gibraltar.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #124 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
But saying it was originally Spanish land, as if that alone gives Spain the greater right to it, precisely implies the unworkable position I was referring to. Half the world was owned by other countries at one point, often for long periods. That doesn't, on its own, mean that such territory isn't legitimately owned by its current owners. To suggest otherwise would cause geopolitical chaos. Gibraltar has been British for three hundred years. That, absent other considerations (and I agree that self-determination matters even more here) would give Britain a greater right to it today than Spain's historic, though shorter, ownership

The stuff about the Spanish monarchy is so speculative it's silly to dwell on it.

That's why I support the right to national self-determination. A referendum must decide the fate of a territory, to which conflicting historical claims exist.
I'm not an Anglophobe. I like the British monarchy, and despite disliking the British Empire, the British Empire wasn't worse than other European colonial empires. The Spanish Empire was actually worse than the British Empire. I dislike European colonialism in general, not just British colonialism. Great Britain has harmed my country by making it part of Iraq, but I don't hate Great Britain because of that. It's after all Iraq, not Great Britain, which has oppressed us. I have always supported Great Britain on the Falkland Islands, because the Falkland Islands never had an Aboriginal population, and the Falkland Islands were never uncontested Argentine territory. But I'm still of the opinion, that Spain has the strongest historical claim to Gibraltar, because Gibraltar had always been part of the states, which ruled Spain, until Great Britain stole Gibraltar from Spain in 1713. But the fate of Gibraltar ought to be decided by the current Gibraltarians, and I will respect their decision, even if I dislike it.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #125 
I didn't say that you were an Anglophobe, simply that this has little to do with whether one is or isn't. The supposed Spanish claim you mention is precisely the unworkable one I mentioned - it erases the last theee hundred years in favour of distant ownership. It would cause chaos to apply this on a global scale, as most territory has changed hands over the centuries. It also seems to rely, yet again, on a questionable equating of different Iberians polities and societies over the millennia - Al-Andalus simply cannot be unproblematically seen as a forebear of modern Spain, and nor can Roman or pre-Roman Iberia - and some kind of eternal Spain and Spanishness that is highly dubious. Self-determination should be primary, but Britain undoubtedly has the greater claim on both fronts - self-determination and history.

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