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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #16 
Most regulations and laws that effect Britain originate in Brussels. Brussels has tremendous sway over Britain. For thirty or forty years our main legislative system has been an axis between bureaucrats in Brussels and in Whitehall, with ministers and the parliament being mostly figureheads and PR. Read the excellent works of Booker and North in this: The Mad Officials, The Castle of Lies, and the Great Deception.

The EU is all about integration. It has a remorseless lust for it, and always has. It was meant to pursue piecemeal integration with some vague goal of political unity - essentially a quasi-superstate - at the end. This is known as the Monnet Method after Jean Monnet, honoured as the first founding father of Europe by the project. It's naive to imagine that this process can somehow be wound back or stopped without undermining the whole thing. The only way to have a much more limited European project would be to start over again.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Most regulations and laws that effect Britain originate in Brussels. Brussels has tremendous sway over Britain. For thirty or forty years our main legislative system has been an axis between bureaucrats in Brussels and in Whitehall, with ministers and the parliament being mostly figureheads and PR. Read the excellent works of Booker and North in this: The Mad Officials, The Castle of Lies, and the Great Deception.

The EU is all about integration. It has a remorseless lust for it, and always has. It was meant to pursue piecemeal integration with some vague goal of political unity - essentially a quasi-superstate - at the end. This is known as the Monnet Method after Jean Monnet, honoured as the first founding father of Europe by the project. It's naive to imagine that this process can somehow be wound back or stopped without undermining the whole thing. The only way to have a much more limited European project would be to start over again.

Most continental Eurosceptics agree with me. They are opposed to European federalism, but they want to remain in the EU. Continental Eurosceptics are often opposed to the Euro and to EU refugee quotas. Scandinavia and Eastern Europe are the strongholds of continental Euroscepticism. Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Czechia and Hungary don't want to join the Eurozone. The vast majority of the Germans want Germany to remain in the EU, but many Germans want Germany to leave the Eurozone, because they are sick and tired of subsidizing poor members of the Eurozone, such as Greece. It's currently impossible to leave the Eurozone without leaving the EU, but Germany will be able to force the EU treaties to be amended in order to allow leaving the Eurozone without leaving the EU, because Germany is very powerful in the EU.
If my proposed ETO is established, do you want Great Britain to join the ETO, or do you want Great Britain to be an ally of USA?
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #18 
That isn't really a response to what I wrote. Eurosceptics in Europe can wish for whatever they want, it doesn't mean there's the slightest hope they'll get it. They fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the EU.

I don't form British foreign policy. And what you describe is most unlikely, but my position would depend on what was on. I would be fine with Britain being part of a free trade zone with the continent. However, that isn't what the single market is. The single market, like its common market predecessor, has a primarily political goal - integration. The single market is also extremely bureaucratic, to a degree that neutralises most of its trade benefits. For example, it did remove most internal customs checks and the burden associated with them. But the Eurocrats decided they needed to still keep track of the trade within the single market, so they came up with Eurostat. This system of paperwork, largely borne by firms themselves, is as onerous as the old customs checks and paperwork. The single market, as it is and is ever likely to be, offers Britain few concrete benefits and many drawbacks, as the figures on British trade growth with the single market countries since 1993 compared with non-members supports.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
That isn't really a response to what I wrote. Eurosceptics in Europe can wish for whatever they want, it doesn't mean there's the slightest hope they'll get it. They fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the EU.

I don't form British foreign policy. And what you describe is most unlikely, but my position would depend on what was on. I would be fine with Britain being part of a free trade zone with the continent. However, that isn't what the single market is. The single market, like its common market predecessor, has a primarily political goal - integration. The single market is also extremely bureaucratic, to a degree that neutralises most of its trade benefits. For example, it did remove most internal customs checks and the burden associated with them. But the Eurocrats decided they needed to still keep track of the trade within the single market, so they came up with Eurostat. This system of paperwork, largely borne by firms themselves, is as onerous as the old customs checks and paperwork. The single market, as it is and is ever likely to be, offers Britain few concrete benefits and many drawbacks, as the figures on British trade growth with the single market countries since 1993 compared with non-members supports.

I support Great Britain leaving the EU, because Great Britain is culturally closer to the Anglosphere than to continental Europe. The EU will be better off without Great Britain. But I want the EU to maintain friendly relations with Great Britain after Brexit. That's why I want Great Britain to leave the EU with a deal. My opposition to British permanent membership of the UN Security Council isn't motivated by Anglophobia, but by the fact, that Great Britain is no longer a great power. I'm also opposed to French membership of the UN Security Council. I dislike Ulster Unionism, I would like Gibraltar to join Spain and I dislike the legacy of the British Empire in India, Africa and the Middle East. But I'm opposed to Scottish independence, I support the British claim to the Falkland Islands and I support continued Windsor rule in Australia and Canada.
I support European military integration and I want the EU to establish friendly relations with Russia. Russia was recently readmitted to the Council of Europe with German and French support, while the US Congress remains strongly hostile to Russia. In addition, I'm strongly opposed to Ukrainian membership of NATO.
The EU allows Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Czechia and Hungary to not join the Eurozone.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #20 
You know you can spare the repetition of the litany of your beliefs when they aren't directly relevant.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
You know you can spare the repetition of the litany of your beliefs when they aren't directly relevant.

The fact, that most continental Eurosceptics want their country to remain a member state of the EU, while opposing the Euro and opposing European federalism, is hardly irrelevant to the discussion. British-style hard Euroscepticism is insignificant in continental Europe. Why do you want the EU to be dissolved? Supporting Brexit doesn't have to mean supporting the dissolution of the EU.
Do you agree, that British permanent membership of the UN Security Council is an anachronism, because Great Britain is no longer a great power?
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

The fact, that most continental Eurosceptics want their country to remain a member state of the EU, while opposing the Euro and opposing European federalism, is hardly irrelevant to the discussion. British-style hard Euroscepticism is insignificant in continental Europe. Why do you want the EU to be dissolved? Supporting Brexit doesn't have to mean supporting the dissolution of the EU.
Do you agree, that British permanent membership of the UN Security Council is an anachronism, because Great Britain is no longer a great power?

Permanent membership isn't about Power, it's about an earned place for winning the war.
A case may be made for admittance of Canada and India etc. for their role in defeating the Axis but certainly not Germany.



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azadi

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

Permanent membership isn't about Power, it's about an earned place for winning the war.
A case may be made for admittance of Canada and India etc. for their role in defeating the Axis but certainly not Germany.



Germany is a mature democracy today, which rejects Nazism. German permanent membership in the UN Security Council will symbolize reconciliation after World War II. You sound like Basil Fawlty in "The Germans".
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

Germany is a mature democracy today, which rejects Nazism. German permanent membership in the UN Security Council will symbolize reconciliation after World War II. You sound like Basil Fawlty in "The Germans".

If in the next World War, the Federal Republic of Germany is on the winning side, I would welcome them to a permanent place on whatever replaces the UN Security Council.

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

If in the next World War, the Federal Republic of Germany is on the winning side, I would welcome them to a permanent place on whatever replaces the UN Security Council.

I don't hate Great Britain. I want Great Britain to leave the EU with a deal, because I want the EU to maintain friendly relations with Great Britain. But you ought to know your place in the world. You are no longer in the same league as USA, Russia and China. Great Britain and France ought to leave the UN Security Council, because they are no longer great powers. German permanent membership of the UN Security Council wouldn't make sense, if Great Britain and France weren't permanent members of the UN Security Council. But the EU ought to be represented at the UN Security Council, and Germany is the largest member state of the EU. India and Brazil ought to become permanent members of the UN Security Council, because they are rising great powers.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #26 
You keep on saying Anglophobe things, then insisting you're not an Anglophobe. How about giving the Anglophobe views a rest, then you wouldn't need to bother with the disclaimers? We all know that Britain cannot today be considered a Great Power. You must have reminded us of it ten times already on this thread, why? We knew it and it doesn't trouble us. And sorry, we're keeping the SC seat to which history entitles us, and from which we cannot be removed unless we voluntarily surrender it. Which won't be happening.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
You keep on saying Anglophobe things, then insisting you're not an Anglophobe. How about giving the Anglophobe views a rest, then you wouldn't need to bother with the disclaimers? We all know that Britain cannot today be considered a Great Power. You must have reminded us of it ten times already on this thread, why? We knew it and it doesn't trouble us. And sorry, we're keeping the SC seat to which history entitles us, and from which we cannot be removed unless we voluntarily surrender it. Which won't be happening.

I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking British Germanophobia. You don't appear to be a Germanophobe. Great Britain still clings to the memory of World War II. Margaret Thatcher opposed German reunification and the right-wing British tabloid press continues to promote Germanophobia, and it often claims, that the EU is the Fourth Reich. Russia and USA has been more magnanimous to Germany after World War II than Great Britain has been. Mikhail Gorbachev allowed German reunification to happen, and George H.W. Bush supported German reunification. 
My support for removing Great Britain from the UN Security Council isn't about Anglophobia, because I also want France to be removed from the UN Security Council. I want permanent membership of the UN Security Council to be limited to great powers, such as USA, Russia and China. If Great Britain and France weren't members of the UN Security Council, I wouldn't support German membership of the UN Security Council, because Germany isn't a great power. I want Germany to be treated as an equal to Great Britain and France, because Germany is a mature democracy, which rejects Nazism.
I'm not an Anglophobe, because a true Anglophobe supports the Argentine claim to the "Malvinas" and supports Scottish independence. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

The fact, that most continental Eurosceptics want their country to remain a member state of the EU, while opposing the Euro and opposing European federalism, is hardly irrelevant to the discussion. British-style hard Euroscepticism is insignificant in continental Europe. Why do you want the EU to be dissolved? Supporting Brexit doesn't have to mean supporting the dissolution of the EU.
Do you agree, that British permanent membership of the UN Security Council is an anachronism, because Great Britain is no longer a great power?


Almost everything you said in that post had no direct relevance to my own post. You don't need to post a litany of your own views in each post, mostly what is only tangentially related to what you are responding to. It's rather irritating.

Anyway, I don't much care what happens to the EU once we leave, but I know Eurosceptics like you describe are whistling Dixie, to use the American phrase. The European project would have to be started over to be a free trade and cooperation zone. Remorseless integration is its very raison d'etre.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #29 
Britain's security council seat serves a good purpose- to veto attempts by Spain and Argentina and their allies to cause trouble. The American seat allows Western interests to be maintained, with Russia and China vetoing support for heavy-handed Western interventionism. There's little practical benefit to giving Germany a seat or India.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Britain's security council seat serves a good purpose- to veto attempts by Spain and Argentina and their allies to cause trouble. The American seat allows Western interests to be maintained, with Russia and China vetoing support for heavy-handed Western interventionism. There's little practical benefit to giving Germany a seat or India.

All great powers ought to be permanent members of the UN Security Council. India and Brazil are rising great powers. India will represent the Commonwealth at the UN Security Council, if Great Britain leaves the UN Security Council. The EU ought to be represented in the UN Security Council. I'm willing to accept Germany not being a permanent member of the UN Security Council, if the EU replaces France as a permanent member of the UN Security Council. The EU can't be a member of the UN Security Council, because it isn't a sovereign state, but the EU members must elect an EU member state to the UN Security Council for a two-year term with veto power.
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