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jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #16 
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Originally Posted by Windemere

It seems a nice ecumenical gesture that in his statement, Pope Benedict referred to Shenouda as 'Patriarch of Alexandria'. I believe that the Catholic Church also recognises the Coptic Catholic Patriarch as holder of that title. But Shenouda was the  traditional Coptic Apostolic Patriarch of Alexandria, head of the original Coptic Church, and in the interests of Christian unity it is nice to see a Catholic recognitition of his title. 


False ecumenism on the part of the Pope. The Patriarch of Alexandria, in full Communion with the Holy See and recognised by Rome as such, is His Eminent Beatitude Antonios I, Cardinal  Naguib.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
The number of Patriarchs of Alexandria seems about as fixed as the date of Easter. However, to an outsider the Oriental Orthodox holder of the patriarchate seems pre-eminent, his see having traditionally been founded in the first century by St Mark and known and recognised as a patriarchate from when is not exactly clear but certainly by the fifth century. Unquestionably he is the acknowledged head of by far the largest part of the Christians of Egypt, and the person most people would think of as the holder, insofar as they think of such things at all.

The Coptic Catholic Patriarchate of Alexandria dates from 1824, but had one holder whose reign lasted seven years only, then was vacant until 1899. After a nine-year reign it was left vacant again until 1947, and has been kept filled ever since. At various points during this history there were actually two Patriarchs of Alexandria appointed by and in communion with Rome, as there was also the Latin Patriarchate of Alexandria, founded by Innocent III in 1215 but only intermittently filled and finally abolished in 1964, ten years after the last Latin Patriarch died.

I am not making fun of this, as I understand how it came about. However I think that Pope Benedict would only make himself look ridiculous by insisting that the title exclusively belonged to the Coptic Catholic Patriarch, leader of only a minority of Egyptian Christians, holding a position of no great antiquity and regarded as unimportant enough to be frequently and lengthily left vacant, to the exclusion of the Oriental Orthodox Patriarch, holding a position of arguably greater antiquity than his own and leader of the majority.
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #18 
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Originally Posted by Peter
The number of Patriarchs of Alexandria seems about as fixed as the date of Easter. However, to an outsider the Oriental Orthodox holder of the patriarchate seems pre-eminent, his see having traditionally been founded in the first century by St Mark and known and recognised as a patriarchate from when is not exactly clear but certainly by the fifth century. Unquestionably he is the acknowledged head of by far the largest part of the Christians of Egypt, and the person most people would think of as the holder, insofar as they think of such things at all.

The Coptic Catholic Patriarchate of Alexandria dates from 1824, but had one holder whose reign lasted seven years only, then was vacant until 1899. After a nine-year reign it was left vacant again until 1947, and has been kept filled ever since. At various points during this history there were actually two Patriarchs of Alexandria appointed by and in communion with Rome, as there was also the Latin Patriarchate of Alexandria, founded by Innocent III in 1215 but only intermittently filled and finally abolished in 1964, ten years after the last Latin Patriarch died.

I am not making fun of this, as I understand how it came about. However I think that Pope Benedict would only make himself look ridiculous by insisting that the title exclusively belonged to the Coptic Catholic Patriarch, leader of only a minority of Egyptian Christians, holding a position of no great antiquity and regarded as unimportant enough to be frequently and lengthily left vacant, to the exclusion of the Oriental Orthodox Patriarch, holding a position of arguably greater antiquity than his own and leader of the majority.

Actually, I'm not arguing against your point. I am just upset with the pervasive liberalism of Rome over the last 50 years which prohibits standing up for Catholicism.

As to the 'unimportance' of the Catholic Patriarch, the current holder is the only Eastern Catholic Patriarch who has been elevated to the Cardinalate and is, ergo, eligible to vote in a Papal election.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #19 
Not quite ergo; after 7 March 2015 though still a cardinal he will not have a vote. I wasn't saying that Cardinal Naguib himself was unimportant, only that the Coptic Catholic Patriarchate historically has clearly not been treated as if it were an important position. And even though it has at least been kept occupied from 1947 on, actually Cardinal Naguib is only the second holder to be raised to the cardinalate, so equally clearly this was for his own qualities rather than the eminence of his position.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #20 
I don't see how according the proper and rightful title to the late Pope Shenouda III by Pope Benedict XVI harms the Coptic Catholic primate in anyway.  The Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate is an ancient one going back to establishment by St. Mark himself, and incidentally the first to use the title of Pope even before the Bishops of Rome (although unlike the Roman title, the Coptic one is not distinct from the Patriarchal title).  The Greek Patriarchate of Alexandria can also trace it's succession to St. Mark diverging only after the Council of Chalcedon let to the splitting of the succession.  The Coptic Orthodox church is not just the largest church in Egypt, it is the largest church in the Middle East.  As Peter pointed out, the much smaller Coptic Catholic Patriarchate is of very recent vintage and it's Apostolic succession is not really even in the See of St. Mark as it was established by the See of St. Peter in Rome.  It is undoubtedly apostolic, but of a different See.  

If Cardinal Naguib himself was present at the funeral of Pope Shenouda and has always accorded his late Holiness his rightful titles and dignities, I can hardly see the merit of your argument that Pope Benedict XVI has not stood up for Catholicsm or that Cardinal Naguib has more right to the title of Patriarch of Alexandria than Pope Shenouda III and his predicessors.

Regardless of all of the above, recognition by Rome of the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria has never been necissary in the history of both sees.  The Pope was correct and gracious in his statement, and clearly his concerns are with the more important issue of the well being of Christians in the Middle East and Egypt in particular, and not with insisting that everyone accept the Coptic Catholic Patriarch as the sole legitimate holder of the title.  That would be a waste of his time and energy.

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Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #21 
Candidates to succeed Pope Shenouda III on the throne of St. Mark are being discussed.

http://www.arabnewsblog.net/2012/05/04/handicapping-the-other-egyptian-election-the-coptic-pope/

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #22 
The preliminary list of 17 candidates for the Coptic Papal throne of Alexandria is now being whittled down to 7.  It will again be further reduced to three before the final names are placed in a box and the name oof the future Pope of Alexandria and all Egypt is pulled out by a boy.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/1/50089/Egypt/Coptic-Orthodox-Church-reveals--candidates-for-pap.aspx

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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #23 
The Coptic Orthodox Church has announced that it will select it's new Pope on December 2, 2012.  The names of it's final three candidates will be placed in a box, and the name of the new Pope will be pulled out by a young boy.
__________________
The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
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