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Ethiomonarchist

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
The late Pope John Paul II has been cleared by the Vatican for sainthood.  It is expected that the late pope will be canonized in the coming months, possibly on December 8, the feast of the Immaculate Conception, which falls on a Sunday this year.  There is speculation that the canonization of Pope John XXIII will happen at the same time as John Paul II.

http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-panel-clears-john-paul-ii-sainthood-144145719.html
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royalcello

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Ugh. I can't stand this "every pope since Vatican II is ipso facto a saint" nonsense. What is saintly about presiding over a Church in meltdown and doing nothing to stop it, only punishing those (e.g. Abp Lefebvre) who are trying to do something about it? I'm glad I'm not Roman Catholic and am not expected to accept this. I for one will NOT be referring to him as "Saint," whatever the regime in Rome says. I feel for my traditionalist friends who are to be confronted with a highly dubious canonization that raises all sorts of questions about Roman infallibility.
DavidV

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
John Paul II had many faults, which I am not going to question here. However, his only meaningful legacies may be more political than religious. Like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, he is associated with the era in which Communism finally collapsed. His role in it may be seen as overstated but it is still beyond question. Being Polish, his election as Pope did galvanise an already very strong anti-Communist resistance movement inside Poland, which also impacted the rest of Eastern Europe. There cannot be any doubt about that, although it was the ordinary "foot soldiers" of Solidarity including ordinary priests who for me deserve much greater credit.
royalcello

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
John Paul II had many faults, which I am not going to question here. However, his only meaningful legacies may be more political than religious. Like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, he is associated with the era in which Communism finally collapsed. His role in it may be seen as overstated but it is still beyond question. Being Polish, his election as Pope did galvanise an already very strong anti-Communist resistance movement inside Poland, which also impacted the rest of Eastern Europe. There cannot be any doubt about that, although it was the ordinary "foot soldiers" of Solidarity including ordinary priests who for me deserve much greater credit.


Indeed, and none of the above is grounds for canonization as traditionally understood.
DavidV

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
I would say that Fr Jerzy Popieluszko is far more worthy of canonisation (having been beatified before John Paul II) for he was a genuine martyr.
Ethiomonarchist

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
The Vatican has announced today that Pope Francis has signed the decree this morning that announces the canonization of Pope John XXIII and Pope John Paul II.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/europe/vatican-pope-sainthood/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

While it is clear that many would not agree with developments that took place during the papacies of these two men, it is to be noted that canonization is for the individual not for his papacy.  I have no doubts that both John XXIII and John Paul II were personally holy men with deep faith and qualities that might indeed qualify them for sainthood.  I wont hold the failures of their reigns against them in this regard.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
DavidV

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
The Vatican has announced today that Pope Francis has signed the decree this morning that announces the canonization of Pope John XXIII and Pope John Paul II.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/europe/vatican-pope-sainthood/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

While it is clear that many would not agree with developments that took place during the papacies of these two men, it is to be noted that canonization is for the individual not for his papacy.  I have no doubts that both John XXIII and John Paul II were personally holy men with deep faith and qualities that might indeed qualify them for sainthood.  I wont hold the failures of their reigns against them in this regard.


My sentiments likewise. Interestingly, after the reign of Paul VI (John Paul I being too brief to have impact) traditionalists were initially excited about the election of John Paul II for all of five seconds because they'd hoped him to be more compromising and an improvement. The FSSP and ICKSP were formed during his reign, which might only have been made possible after the events of 1988.

Is it because I am so concerned about the health of our Faith that I am determined to try and reconcile its internal conflicts and contradictions?
Ethiomonarchist

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Is it because I am so concerned about the health of our Faith that I am determined to try and reconcile its internal conflicts and contradictions?


It is an admirable desire and more power to you. 


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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
royalcello

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
I disagree. I think in this day and age it will be widely assumed, whether correctly or not, that canonization is essentially an endorsement of his papacy, which the Vatican in fact knows and intends. They are sending the message that the Second Vatican Council is to be firmly entrenched and even the very slight hesitant steps towards tradition of Benedict XVI (who might have even abdicated partly so as to avoid being association with this canonization) are being abandoned. A truly saintly pope would not permit the liturgy to be profaned as it often was during JPII's papacy including at events presided over by the pope himself. The only even minimally decent pope of my lifetime, and though only 34 I've lived in five papacies, was Benedict XVI who at least cared about what had happened to the liturgy and tried (if perhaps too gently) to move things in the right direction. I am totally opposed to this dubious "canonization" and urge Roman Catholics to reject it, however problematic that may be.
KYMonarchist

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Well, the Catholic Church apparently recognized a second miracle which they have attributed to the intercession of Pope John Paul II, which apparently meets the Catholic standard for canonization of a person. They must now canonize John Paul II (their own rules require it), or they are legally required to dissolve the Catholic Church on grounds of, I believe, false advertising or something like that. I mean, if the Catholic Church won't obey its own rules and doctrines, how can it continue existing? Everybody'll leave!

Honestly, I'm now wondering why you're a Christian, 'cause I don't think your mentality is all that Christian. It reminds me more of the ancient pagan mentality, focused not on the correct beliefs (orthodoxy), but on the correct actions (orthopraxy). You emphasize the ritual, not the belief behind the ritual, the exact opposite of how Christians have historically thought things should be. At least that's what I think of you now.
royalcello

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 

Christians are by no means unanimous on that point. You seem to be equating "Christian" with "Protestant," and I'm a High Church Anglican catholic. Ideally both orthodoxy and orthopraxy should be maintained. And from a traditionalist point of view the post-V2 popes and clergy have been delinquent regarding orthodoxy as well. I personally happen to feel more comfortable discussing worship (liturgy & music), but there are plenty of lucid critiques of JP2 focusing on the doctrinal implications of his words and actions.

However I would never deny that I feel more solidarity with, say, a Hindu who wishes to worship as his ancestors have worshiped for generations, than with a fan of "Contemporary Christian Worship" who prefers rock bands to organs & choirs.

 
royalcello

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 

The whole thing is messed up. That's why I'm not a Roman Catholic. But the RCC has been incoherent since Vatican II, yet a billion people haven't left.

(Perhaps Anglicanism is incoherent too, but it's not as problematic for us since we don't claim to be the "One True Church.")

 
BaronVonServers

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 

"Ideally both orthodoxy and orthopraxy should be maintained."

Still looking for that parish church with M&E, by-the-book services, with a men-and-boys quire that can 'mostly sing', and a passion for the poor.  I may have to get M.Div, and start one.
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royalcello

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers

 

Still looking for that parish church with M&E, by-the-book services, with a men-and-boys quire that can 'mostly sing', and a passion for the poor.  I may have to get M.Div, and start one.




This place might come the closest, but you don't live in Maryland:

http://ststeve.com/
BaronVonServers

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Higher level and more urban than I think I could manage as a plant.
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