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BaronVonServers

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<Disclaimer nothing to do with Monarchy>

Way Off Topic

Hope y'all don't mind, but I thought some of you might find this off topic item interesting:

The Pensacola Convention on the Rights of the Child is the work of the Dominion of British West Florida, in conjunction with other Micro-nations.


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pauljluk

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Unfortunately, biological reality makes a nonsense of your first article (Every Child has the right to life, from the moment of conception). There is no child at the moment of conception, only a single diploid cell called a zygote; and its natural chances of ever becoming a living child are only about 50%. 
BaronVonServers

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Originally Posted by pauljluk
Unfortunately, biological reality makes a nonsense of your first article (Every Child has the right to life, from the moment of conception). There is no child at the moment of conception, only a single diploid cell called a zygote; and its natural chances of ever becoming a living child are only about 50%. 


Biological reality makes the single cell you call a zygote a genetically distinct person, worthy of recognition in law.

If Survival rates were the issue, no one would have the right to life - Everyone Dies - the survival rate for all people is 0%. 

(Granted that the present company may not have actually died yet, but based on historical observations, one can safely deduce that no one lives forever).

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pauljluk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Biological reality makes the single cell you call a zygote a genetically distinct person, worthy of recognition in law.

You're re-inventing the meaning of the word "person". A person is a sentient being capable of surviving independently. While it has the potential to become a person, a zygote itself is little more than a recipe : a package of DNA containing instructions. You don't have a person until those instructions are acted upon by the process of pregnancy, just as you don't have a cake until the ingredients are acquired and the recipe is followed.
WhiteCockade

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Legal positivism and semantics, that is all this is Paul. 


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BaronVonServers

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Biological reality makes the single cell you call a zygote a genetically distinct person, worthy of recognition in law.

You're re-inventing the meaning of the word "person". A person is a sentient being capable of surviving independently. While it has the potential to become a person, a zygote itself is little more than a recipe : a package of DNA containing instructions. You don't have a person until those instructions are acted upon by the process of pregnancy, just as you don't have a cake until the ingredients are acquired and the recipe is followed.

The comparison would be more apt if all that was left was the cooking time.....
(an uncooked cake with all the ingredients ready mixed), needing only time and the proper environment.

Newborns don't survive independently, they must be kept warm, provided food (often directly from the mother's body), and cleaned.  Most folks them of them as people though.... The difference is the location where the care is being given.  Not in its necessity.

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pauljluk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCockade

Legal positivism and semantics, that is all this is Paul. 


Not at all - I'm dealing with hard, physical, reality. A zygote is hardly more a human being than than the separate egg and sperm are in a couple which has yet to copulate. In both cases, all the material of a potential future human being exists, but the human him/herself doesn't come into being until the process of "person-creation" is complete.

In no other sphere would we say that we have something when all we've done is to bring the ingredients or building blocks together in one place, and nor should we here.
pauljluk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
The comparison would be more apt if all that was left was the cooking time..... (an uncooked cake with all the ingredients ready mixed), needing only time and the proper environment.

Except that the ingredients of a human being are not ready mixed in a zygote : little more than the recipe is present. The physical material which allows it grow into an embryo and then a fetus and then a person is gathered during the process of pregnancy.

Quote:
Newborns don't survive independently, they must be kept warm, provided food (often directly from the mother's body), and cleaned.  Most folks them of them as people though.... The difference is the location where the care is being given.  Not in its necessity.

The fact that there is a choice of location is what makes the crucial difference. Until birth, a fetus is in an exclusive symbiotic relationship with the mother. Beyond birth, it still needs caring for, but it is no longer an integral part of another human organism.
BaronVonServers

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
The comparison would be more apt if all that was left was the cooking time..... (an uncooked cake with all the ingredients ready mixed), needing only time and the proper environment.

Except that the ingredients of a human being are not ready mixed in a zygote : little more than the recipe is present. The physical material which allows it grow into an embryo and then a fetus and then a person is gathered during the process of pregnancy.
I'll grant the 'consumes outside resources' - but not that the ingredients are missing, all the ingredients are there, its just a matter of quantity and arrangement.  And in this case the 'recipe' gathers the ingredients from the environment, and fashions them according to the design.  A cake that makes itself in the oven, from flour, eggs, milk, and sugar, which are conveniently at hand, while manipulating the oven to increase the supply of eggs, milk, sugar and flour  - perhaps the cake comparison just doesn't work at all, and can't be fixed to relate to this discussion. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk

Quote:
Newborns don't survive independently, they must be kept warm, provided food (often directly from the mother's body), and cleaned.  Most folks them of them as people though.... The difference is the location where the care is being given.  Not in its necessity.

The fact that there is a choice of location is what makes the crucial difference. Until birth, a fetus is in an exclusive symbiotic relationship with the mother. Beyond birth, it still needs caring for, but it is no longer an integral part of another human organism.

Actually, I think the relationship is parasitic not symbiotic, in uetero - I don't know of any benefits the mother receives, but perhaps there are some. 

What of those that are conceived outside the mother's womb, then implanted?

They are developing and growing outside the mother's body.  The Physicians have choice of location (Who gets to be the Mama).  Then they are implanted in her womb - sorry uterus - to continue gestation (Choice of Location is removed, even the best neo-natal units can't handle them too young -- and I've not heard of a 'fetus' transplant). Taking the 'location' argument, and applying it to the 'test tube babies' would have you argue that they are people before implantation, not people after, and then people again when born.  Neither Location of Development nor Choices about Location seems to me to be a good basis for determining person-hood.

They don't become an integral part of their mother.  They begin and remain genetically distinct, just as the parasites in your intestine are not an 'integral part' of your body, the baby -sorry fetus - doesn't become an 'integral part' of the mothers body. 

Neither the impact the parasite has on your body nor the inability of the parasite to survive outside of your intestine won't help its claim 'integral part' status either.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCockade

Legal positivism and semantics, that is all this is Paul. 


Not at all - I'm dealing with hard, physical, reality. A zygote is hardly more a human being than than the separate egg and sperm are in a couple which has yet to copulate. In both cases, all the material of a potential future human being exists, but the human him/herself doesn't come into being until the process of "person-creation" is complete.

Real Facts:  The 'zygote' has all the genetic material need to develop a complete human body, and a propensity to use it, neither the sperm nor the egg has either.

Neither the egg nor the sperm, no matter how well cared for can ever become a voter.  They don't have the 'blue-print', the genetic material in both is a 'half copy'.  There isn't even the potential of life in them, left in their natural environment their cells don't even replicate. 

The 'zyqote', however, has the full genetic material necessary, and a tendency to use it, and fashion for himself a more mature body, and provided the proper environment, and about 18 and 3/4  years (average) of development can become a voter, (yes, at present, about one half of that first year  must occur inside a woman).  That's cold hard physical reality. 

'Hardly more',  when the difference is 100% is a very biased presentation of the facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk

In no other sphere would we say that we have something when all we've done is to bring the ingredients or building blocks together in one place, and nor should we here.

If those building blocks self-assembled we just might.....

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pauljluk

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Real Facts:  The 'zygote' has all the genetic material need to develop a complete human body, and a propensity to use it, neither the sperm nor the egg has either.

Yes, indeed, a zygote has the genetic material (but not the whole physical materia) to develop a human body, but unless and until that development takes place it is not a human body. That is the point. Potential is not actuality.

Quote:
Neither the egg nor the sperm, no matter how well cared for can ever become a voter.  They don't have the 'blue-print', the genetic material in both is a 'half copy'.  There isn't even the potential of life in them, left in their natural environment their cells don't even replicate.

A zygote left in its natural environment, as it is at conception, can never become a voter either. It has to get itself implanted in the womb (which many of them never do) and remain a symbiotic part of the mother for several weeks. Only later does it become a separate entity.

Quote:
Quote:
In no other sphere would we say that we have something when all we've done is to bring the ingredients or building blocks together in one place, and nor should we here.

If those building blocks self-assembled we just might.....

Try taking a zygote out of the mother's body and watch it assemble! It won't happen. That tiny little bundle of chemical is only part of what makes a human being : process and environment are as much a part of what we are as ingredients. Fertilisation of an egg is only stage one of the process.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Real Facts:  The 'zygote' has all the genetic material need to develop a complete human body, and a propensity to use it, neither the sperm nor the egg has either.

Yes, indeed, a zygote has the genetic material (but not the whole physical materia) to develop a human body, but unless and until that development takes place it is not a human body. That is the point. Potential is not actuality.

It is already a human body (check the cellular structure, run the DNA check), it is not a mature human body, but the body is human.  The potential is for it to mature, not for it to become.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers

Neither the egg nor the sperm, no matter how well cared for can ever become a voter.  They don't have the 'blue-print', the genetic material in both is a 'half copy'.  There isn't even the potential of life in them, left in their natural environment their cells don't even replicate.

A zygote left in its natural environment, as it is at conception, can never become a voter either. It has to get itself implanted in the womb (which many of them never do) and remain a symbiotic part of the mother for several weeks. Only later does it become a separate entity.
Left in the fallopian tube, the developing human body will, naturally, travel to the womb, implent itself, take over and grow, perhaps you have a different diffinition of 'natural environment'.  (We are agreed that many fail to mature, even in their natural environment), I'm still don't buy the symbiosis, the developing bady is a parasite, the 'host body' gains nothing from the relationship except perhaps stretch marks. The developing human is a separate entity from the time it gains its own DNA structure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers

In no other sphere would we say that we have something when all we've done is to bring the ingredients or building blocks together in one place, and nor should we here.

If those building blocks self-assembled we just might.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk

Try taking a zygote out of the mother's body and watch it assemble! It won't happen
On part of this we also agree, the parasite needs its host inorder to mature. (though medical sciense is pushing the time limits ever smaller for the that need, from both the early and late development points, both through in vitro fertilization and better neo-natal units.)  But on the signficant point, no one has to assemble the mature human body for anyone else, the body assembles itself, more-or-less. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljluk
That tiny little bundle of chemical is only part of what makes a human being : process and environment are as much a part of what we are as ingredients. Fertilisation of an egg is only stage one of the process.
That 'tiny little bundle of chemicals' is an immature human: the process of time, and environmental support are required for it to mature, not for it to 'become human'. 

You seem to have set an arbitrary point in development when you will admit they are people, what do you use as that point? 

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I am NOT an authorized representative of my Government.

Learn more about the Dominion of British West Florida at http://dbwf.net
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