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azadi

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
For once we agree Azadi[rofl]
Anyway, can we now bring back this thread to it's original purpose, the political expression of southern irish unionism?

Do you support the claim of the House of Liechtenstein to the Irish throne?
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #17 
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Originally Posted by azadi

Do you support the claim of the House of Liechtenstein to the Irish throne?

No
They're not even the Jacobite claimants yet - the Duke of Bavaria hasn't died yet
Even if they were, I'm not a Jacobite.

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #18 
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Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

No
They're not even the Jacobite claimants yet - the Duke of Bavaria hasn't died yet
Even if they were, I'm not a Jacobite.

You don't have to support Jacobitism in Scotland and England, because you support Jacobitism in Ireland. Irish monarchists ought to be Jacobites, because supporting a Windsor restoration in Ireland is considered treason by most Irishmen. Most Irishmen will never accept Ireland becoming a Commonwealth realm.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #19 
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Originally Posted by azadi

You don't have to support Jacobitism in Scotland and England, because you support Jacobitism in Ireland. Irish monarchists ought to be Jacobites, because supporting a Windsor restoration in Ireland is considered treason by most Irishmen. Most Irishmen will never accept Ireland becoming a Commonwealth realm.

Monarchism isn't about hoping for the practical but for the beautiful.
Either Jacobitism is superior to Hannoverian Succession or it isn't.
Either the Jacobite claim is valid over the British Isles or it isn't.

The Jacobite claim to France is, I will admit, a completely seperate question.

If I accept that James VII&II renounced his and James, Prince of Wales' claims to England and Scotland by his fleeing of the realms and disposal of the Great Seal then the same applies to Ireland.

As such, Elizabeth II, Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, heir to Anne, Queen of Great Britain and Queen of Ireland, is the best claimant to the (British) Irish throne.

However, there's another way to make Elizabeth II the best claimant to the Irish throne, and that is as High Queen of Ireland.

The High King of Ireland was whichever provincial King held the most influence over the island of Ireland at the time.

The only province which currently engages in monarchy is Ulster, in 6/9 counties.

As such, the provincial monarch with the most influence over the island of Ireland is Queen Elizabeth II in right of Northern Ireland.

This makes Queen Elizabeth II the High Queen of Ireland.

I realise that you like monarchs to be descended from the famous monarchs of history, and indeed Her Majesty is a descendent of Brian Borru, Imperator Scottorum.

As such, I cannot accept anyone other than HM Elizabeth II as the true Queen of Ireland.

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MatthewJTaylor

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Additionally, the Last High King of Ireland, Edward Bruce only had an illegitimate son.
As such, his brother Robert the Bruce, King of Scots is his dynastic heir.
Therefore, if one wants to assume a hereditary succession for the High Kingship, as opposed to a power-based succesion, then one would follow the Scottish royal line.

As such, the Jacobite question for the High Kingship would follow the same way as the Jacobite question for the Scottish crown.

Therefore, if one accepts, as I believe you do, that Hannoverian succession was legitimate in Scotland, as was confirmed by the Scottish constitutional convention, then a hereditary succession to the King Kingship of Ireland also follows the Hannoverian royal line in the British Isles, then Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, then Windsor, winding up with HM Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as also the dynastic heir to the de Brus High Kingship of Ireland.

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MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #21 

Therefore Elizabeth II is in Ireland:

i) Rightful heir to the British Irish crown as Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
ii) Practical High Queen of Ireland
iii) Dynastic heir to the last High King of Ireland

I think that's quite a conclusive case.

In my view, the only real alternative to HM in a monarchist Ireland would be to restore the provincial monarchs and have an elective High Kingship amongst them.


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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

Therefore Elizabeth II is in Ireland:

i) Rightful heir to the British Irish crown as Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
ii) Practical High Queen of Ireland
iii) Dynastic heir to the last High King of Ireland

I think that's quite a conclusive case.

In my view, the only real alternative to HM in a monarchist Ireland would be to restore the provincial monarchs and have an elective High Kingship amongst them.


The overthrow of King James VII and II was wrong, because it was caused by bigotry against Catholics.The majority of the Irishmen remained loyal to King James VII and II during the Glorious Revolution, while the majority of the Englishmen and the majority of the Scots supported King William III.
I don't support Jacobite restorations in Scotland and England, because it will aid and abet republicanism and because Queen Elizabeth is a descendant of King James VI and I. I would have supported a Jacobite restoration in Scotland, if the Hannoverians hadn't been descended from the Stuarts, because the Scottish monarch ought to be descended from the Stuarts. I would have preferred Scotland being a republic to Scotland being ruled by the House of Cromwell.
VivatReginaScottorum

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Reply with quote  #23 
You've repeated all of this before multiple times. Restating the same opinions over and over is not debating, and no one here needs reminding of all of your opinions every few days; give us a little more credit, we are not all senile.

Hypothetically, one could make an argument that Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia has a claim to the throne of Ireland, since some of the leaders of the Easter Rising considered inviting his grandfather Prince Joachim to become king of an independent Irish state. Given that Joachim never actually reigned over Ireland de facto or de jure, it's not a particularly strong claim, though that hasn't stopped people I've met in monarchist circles argue for the claim in the past. Franz Wilhelm is the ex-husband of Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia, and the father of her heir apparent Grand Duke George Mikhailovich, so hypothetically going down this route would eventually result in a personal union between Russia and Ireland, which would be quite hilarious. Plus, Franz Wilhelm is a convert to Russian Orthodoxy, which would satisfy Azadi's anti-Protestant prejudices.

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatReginaScottorum
You've repeated all of this before multiple times. Restating the same opinions over and over is not debating, and no one here needs reminding of all of your opinions every few days; give us a little more credit, we are not all senile.

Hypothetically, one could make an argument that Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia has a claim to the throne of Ireland, since some of the leaders of the Easter Rising considered inviting his grandfather Prince Joachim to become king of an independent Irish state. Given that Joachim never actually reigned over Ireland de facto or de jure, it's not a particularly strong claim, though that hasn't stopped people I've met in monarchist circles argue for the claim in the past. Franz Wilhelm is the ex-husband of Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia, and the father of her heir apparent Grand Duke George Mikhailovich, so hypothetically going down this route would eventually result in a personal union between Russia and Ireland, which would be quite hilarious. Plus, Franz Wilhelm is a convert to Russian Orthodoxy, which would satisfy Azadi's anti-Protestant prejudices.

I was replying to Matthew J Taylor, not to you. You ought to have ignored my post, if you don't want to be reminded of my opinions. Why are you opposed to a Jacobite restoration in Ireland? It's unfortunately unlikely to happen, but it being unlikely to happen doesn't make wanting it wrong.
VivatReginaScottorum

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Reply with quote  #25 
I never said I was. I couldn't care less what the Irish do, it's none of my business. I do think that arguing that the Wittelsbachs are the legitimate claimants of the Irish throne because of their Jacobite ancestry, but not of England and Scotland, is logically inconsistent though. Either the claim to all three kingdoms is legitimate or the claims to none of them are.

MatthewJTaylor has eyes of his own, and can read your many past posts on these topics as easily as I can. No one else on this forum feels the need to restate their positions on everything as much as you do.

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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #26 
As a general matter you should stop your mantras and repetitions, it clogs up the forum. Vivat is quite within his rights to remind you of this. You have been told often enough, even by Theodore.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #27 
Azadi can you please actually respond to the arguements I put forth regarding the legitimacy of Elizabeth II in Ireland?
Simply saying no becuase she's a protestant doesn't really make sense since the Monarchs of Ireland were Anglican for Generations and it was the Papacy itself that endorsed English Rule in Ireland in the first place.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #28 
It was, but Henry II was of course a Catholic. The Reformation was still hundreds of years away. My own view is that Elizabeth II is the only person who could reasonably put forth a claim to the Irish monarchy. But she claims no part of Ireland except the part where she actually does reign, and I certainly will not be making any claims on her behalf.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
Azadi can you please actually respond to the arguements I put forth regarding the legitimacy of Elizabeth II in Ireland?
Simply saying no becuase she's a protestant doesn't really make sense since the Monarchs of Ireland were Anglican for Generations and it was the Papacy itself that endorsed English Rule in Ireland in the first place.

I'm not opposed to Ireland becoming a Commonwealth realm, because Queen Elizabeth II is a Protestant. I'm opposed to Ireland becoming a Commonwealth realm, because Ireland becoming a Commonwealth realm is unacceptable to most Irishmen, because Britain has oppressed the Irishmen. I support Jacobitism in Ireland, because the majority of the Irishmen supported King James VII and II during the Glorious Revolution. 
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #30 
Surely as monarchists we are not looking to implement the will of the majority though but to implement legitimate royal government?
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