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azadi

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
I always find it strange that some tender consciences balk at things like male primogeniture or Sallic succession laws, when hereditary monarchy itself is an enclave of the non-democratic and non-egalitarian, by its nature. I suppose you could say why multiple what is distasteful to some modern ears. But what is to stop us ending in absolute primogeniture? As has sadly happened in Britain.

I personally prefer a king to be succeeded by his daughter rather than by a distant relative. In addition, struggling against the Zeitgeist of gender equality weakens monarchism. I personally support male-preference primogeniture, but even male-preference primogeniture is considered outdated by most Europeans. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #17 
To many Europeans, monarchy is considered outdated, not to mention many other things that are good, beautiful, and true. But I think that your statement about what most Europeans believe about male preference primogeniture is questionable. That's certainly the trendy opinion. What the man or even woman on the street, assuming they have much of an opinion, isn't necessarily the same.

It may be true that struggling against contemporary fads too strongly weakens monarchy, but then so does undermining the basic underpinnings of monarchy. Hereditary monarchy by its nature is opposed to democracy and egalitarianism as absolute values, and relies at least on there not being hostility to all tradition. How we balance accession to contemporary mores with the necessary supports of monarchy is an ongoing challenge, but I'd caution and reticence, whilst trying not to look reactionary or oppositional, over enthusiastic embrace.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
To many Europeans, monarchy is considered outdated, not to mention many other things that are good, beautiful, and true. But I think that your statement about what most Europeans believe about male preference primogeniture is questionable. That's certainly the trendy opinion. What the man or even woman on the street, assuming they have much of an opinion, isn't necessarily the same.

It may be true that struggling against contemporary fads too strongly weakens monarchy, but then so does undermining the basic underpinnings of monarchy. Hereditary monarchy by its nature is opposed to democracy and egalitarianism as absolute values, and relies at least on there not being hostility to all tradition. How we balance accession to contemporary mores with the necessary supports of monarchy is an ongoing challenge, but I'd caution and reticence, whilst trying not to look reactionary or oppositional, over enthusiastic embrace.

Salic law is considered outdated to most European monarchists. In addition, I'm not demanding, that non-reigning royal dynasties, which uphold Salic law, such as the Hohenzollerns and the Habsburgs, introduces female succession to the throne. Monarchists ought to respect the decisions of the heads of non-reigning royal dynasties concerning succession to the throne. Reza Pahlavi supports introduction of female succession to the Iranian throne, and King Mihai introduced female succession to the Romanian throne. I admire Reza Pahlavi and King Mihai of Romania. Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples, is far less admirable than Reza Pahlavi and King Mihai of Romania, but monarchists ought to support him, because he is the head of the Savoia dynasty.
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Personally, I'm indifferent to Salic Law as such, I just see no need to abolish of it in most cases, and I think monarchists should be restrained, though not perhaps obstinate, in the face of such faddish pushes.

I'm curious how you know most European monarchists don't want Salic Law. That seems a surmise on your part, and may also depend on how you are defining monarchist.
azadi

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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Personally, I'm indifferent to Salic Law as such, I just see no need to abolish of it in most cases, and I think monarchists should be restrained, though not perhaps obstinate, in the face of such faddish pushes.

I'm curious how you know most European monarchists don't want Salic Law. That seems a surmise on your part, and may also depend on how you are defining monarchist.

Are you opposed to introduction of female succession to the Iranian throne? Are you opposed to King Mihai's decision to introduce female succession to the Romanian throne?
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #21 
It makes sense in those cases. But in those cases it isn't being done for ideological or faddish reasons.
Pallavicini

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Originally Posted by Wessexman
Personally, I'm indifferent to Salic Law as such, I just see no need to abolish of it in most cases, and I think monarchists should be restrained, though not perhaps obstinate, in the face of such faddish pushes. 


I have understood fads as ephemeral social phenomena, such as impractical fashion crazes, or that ubiquitous child's toy which a year later is buried at the back of your kid's closet. Where they have been instituted, gender-neutral succession rules and the motivating forces behind them appear not faddish at all, but irreversible course changes that reflect the evolving social attitudes of the population. 

My concern with the Savoy's not totally unexpected move is that the machinery of the former monarchy is not available to codify such changes. And Italy is definitely not Romania, where the republican government has, in its treatment of Margareta, endorsed a practical course-change from the succession rules in force under the monarchy.


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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #23 
Thank you for that piece of pedantry. That was quite an acceptable usage. I'm pleased to know, though, that you are gifted with precognition, to know what's permanent and what isn't.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #24 
The Italian monarchy is extremely unlikely to be restored, because monarchism is insignificant in Italy. Restoring the Italian monarchy makes no sense to most Italians, because the Italian monarchy was replaced by a democratic republic rather than a totalitarian regime and because the Savoias supported Mussolini. But the Italian republic ought to return seized private property to the Savoias, because the Savoias being exiled and losing their private property, when the Italian monarchy was abolished, was unfair. The Savoias were fortunately allowed to return to Italy in 2002.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #25 
I regret having proposed electing Patrick Ali Pahlavi Shah of Kurdistan, because the Pahlavis have never ruled Kurdistan. I want an Osmanoglu to be elected Shah of Kurdistan, because Kurdistan was part of the Ottoman Empire.
Pallavicini

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murtagon
 I think that even if Emanuele Filiberto had not had any children at all, his father would have given succession rights to his sisters and their children. 


What a very bleak dynastic scenario that would make for...

Vittorio Emanuele's eldest sister Maria Pia's two oldest sons Dimitri and Michael (twins) never married. As for her her younger twins Serge and Helene, it is an open family secret that their father was not the late Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (of course he is their legal father and they are legitimate), but another royal prince, the late Michel de Bourbon-Parma, whom Maria Pia married many years later. Serge only recently became a father - of a son born out of wedlock, however. Helene has issue (French-citizen commoners) by her fraudster first husband.

VE's second sister Maria Gabriella, a beauty linked in her day to multiple princes, married a commoner and has a daughter who is a mom of at least three.  But Maria Gabriella, repulsed by her brother's sketchy antics (both in and out of prison) supports her Aosta cousins, a move also based on the information that was kept secret for so long about Umberto II never recognizing his son's marriage.

VE's youngest sister, the former wild-child Maria Beatrice, married an Argentine commoner and has issue.

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Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallavicini


What a very bleak dynastic scenario that would make for...

Vittorio Emanuele's eldest sister Maria Pia's two oldest sons Dimitri and Michael (twins) never married. As for her her younger twins Serge and Helene, it is an open family secret that their father was not the late Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (of course he is their legal father and they are legitimate), but another royal prince, the late Michel de Bourbon-Parma, whom Maria Pia married many years later. Serge only recently became a father - of a son born out of wedlock, however. Helene has issue (French-citizen commoners) by her fraudster first husband.

VE's second sister Maria Gabriella, a beauty linked in her day to multiple princes, married a commoner and has a daughter who is a mom of at least three.  But Maria Gabriella, repulsed by her brother's sketchy antics (both in and out of prison) supports her Aosta cousins, a move also based on the information that was kept secret for so long about Umberto II never recognizing his son's marriage.

VE's youngest sister, the former wild-child Maria Beatrice, married an Argentine commoner and has issue.


I do admit that I was just trying to make a point. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Let us imagine that Luis Alfonso de Bourbon is suddenly the only senior legitimate Bourbon left, with no other agnatic descendants of King Felipe V of Spain, but plenty from the branch of King Louis Philippe I of the French. Although this would for all intents and purposes mean a reunification of two major claims, Luis Alfonso decides for whatever reason that he should be succeeded by his daughter instead. Are we going to suddenly celebrate the victory of "modernity" and "equality" or lament that the sliver of a chance for a legitimate restoration has vanished?
azadi

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murtagon


I do admit that I was just trying to make a point. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Let us imagine that Luis Alfonso de Bourbon is suddenly the only senior legitimate Bourbon left, with no other agnatic descendants of King Felipe V of Spain, but plenty from the branch of King Louis Philippe I of the French. Although this would for all intents and purposes mean a reunification of two major claims, Luis Alfonso decides for whatever reason that he should be succeeded by his daughter instead. Are we going to suddenly celebrate the victory of "modernity" and "equality" or lament that the sliver of a chance for a legitimate restoration has vanished?

The Aosta claim to the Italian throne is frivolous, because the Aostas are distant relatives of the last King of Italy, while Emanuele Filiberto is the grandson of the last King of Italy. I don't care about uniting the Capetian claim to the French throne, because I'm a Bonapartist.
The Iranian monarchy is the monarchy, which is most likely to be restored. I won't rule out restoration of the Russian monarchy, because Tsarist nostalgia is widespread in Russia and some prominent supporters of Putin are monarchists, but I will rule out restoration of any Western European monarchy, because monarchism is insignificant the Western European former monarchies. The Italian monarchy was replaced by a democratic republic, while the Russian and Iranian monarchies were replaced by totalitarian regimes. Restoration of the Hohenzollern monarchy of Germany makes more sense than restoration of the French and Italian monarchies, because restoration of the Hohenzollern monarchy will strengthen German national pride by reconnecting Germany to its pre-Nazi past.
Pallavicini

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi
 The Aosta claim to the Italian throne is frivolous 


Only if one chooses to utterly disregard the laws and traditions in place under the Italian monarchy, and pretend that King Umberto II did not disavow his only son's marriage.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #30 
Exactly.
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