Monarchy Forum
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 11      1   2   3   4   Next   »
Pallavicini

Registered:
Posts: 58
Reply with quote  #1 
Not too surprisingly, the senior line of Italy’s former royal house is proclaiming a change to succession rules that places Prince Emanuele Filiberto’s daughters ahead of the Aosta branch.  However, the Aosta branch announced some years back that they succeeded Italy’s last king based on documentation left behind by King Umberto II which negates the succession claims of Vittorio Emanuele and Emanuele Filiberto. Though Umberto II gave his little grandson Emanuele Filiberto a title, he firmly withheld royal approval of his only son’s marriage to Marina Doria and never reversed himself. 
 
This announcement follows similar changes in several European monarchies, but more closely follows what was done by Two Sicilies prince Carlo Duke of Noto.  Like Emanuele Filiberto, he is the father of two daughters. After reaching a sort of formal detente with the rival and more senior branch of the Two Sicilies family, Carlo reversed himself and has since proclaimed his eldest daughter the next head of the Two Sicilies Royal House.

__________________
“We're all born naked, and the rest is drag.”  - RuPaul
MatthewJTaylor

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 277
Reply with quote  #2 
That's a real disappointment.
I had hoped that the claims would soon merge, allowing an advance in Italian monarchism.

__________________
ceterum censeo caetum europaeum delendum esse
The Scottish Tory - https://sites.google.com/view/scottishtory
Scots for a French Royal Restoration - https://sites.google.com/view/sfrr
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor
That's a real disappointment.
I had hoped that the claims would soon merge, allowing an advance in Italian monarchism.

The Savoias have finally entered the 21st century.
MatthewJTaylor

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 277
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

The Savoias have finally entered the 21st century.

"It's the [current] century" is hardly a good arguement for change.
Whilst I understand why you may want female succession - I myself am the loyal subject of a reigning Queen - do you not see the harm that is done to monarchism by preventing a union of the claims?

__________________
ceterum censeo caetum europaeum delendum esse
The Scottish Tory - https://sites.google.com/view/scottishtory
Scots for a French Royal Restoration - https://sites.google.com/view/sfrr
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

"It's the [current] century" is hardly a good arguement for change.
Whilst I understand why you may want female succession - I myself am the loyal subject of a reigning Queen - do you not see the harm that is done to monarchism by preventing a union of the claims?

Introducing female succession to the Italian throne will strengthen Italian monarchism, because most Italians will support female succession to the throne, if the Italian monarchy is restored. A restored Italian monarchy using Salic law will look outdated to most Italians. 
Pallavicini

Registered:
Posts: 58
Reply with quote  #6 
Once a monarchy has fallen, royal houses are cursed, as disenfranchisement becomes the great equalizer.  The family head exerts no actual power over his relatives and often has little leverage to rein them in. Fortunate is the fallen 19th/20th-century monarchy where there are neither fissures nor rival factions within the family and its monarchist supporters. 
__________________
“We're all born naked, and the rest is drag.”  - RuPaul
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallavicini
Once a monarchy has fallen, royal houses are cursed, as disenfranchisement becomes the great equalizer.  The family head exerts no actual power over his relatives and often has little leverage to rein them in. Fortunate is the fallen 19th/20th-century monarchy where there are neither fissures nor rival factions within the family and its monarchist supporters. 

The Osmanoglus have avoided succession disputes.  
Pallavicini

Registered:
Posts: 58
Reply with quote  #8 
Emanuele Filiberto's daughters have received new royal titles.

The Savoy-Aostas, who are by right and tradition King Umberto's heirs after his rejection of his son's marriage, have issued a statement invoking the House (Salic) Laws that were in effect in the former Kingdom of Italy.

__________________
“We're all born naked, and the rest is drag.”  - RuPaul
Murtagon

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 214
Reply with quote  #9 
I knew it!

I just knew that the senior, albeit non-dynastic branch, would eventually resort to that move.

I think that even if Emanuele Filiberto had not had any children at all, his father would have given succession rights to his sisters and their children.

Does anyone from them actually want for the monarchy to be restored? The order of succession should be changed only when it's extremely important. This is just out of spite.

After all, King Victor Emmanuel I of Sardinia didn't grant his daughters the right to succeed him, as he recognised that "the law is older than the state", as the Prince of Liechtenstein has put it nicely.
Windemere

Registered:
Posts: 457
Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks for posting that interesting link about the new Italian titles and change in succession rules. I myself cannot read Italian, and so I'll have to wait until such time as they're posted in English. For sentimental and traditional reasons, I myself prefer Salic succession. Nevertheless, it's understandable that new titles have been created for Emanuele Filiberto's daughters, as they are their grandfather's only biological heirs, and it maintains the ideal of an Italian monarchy in Italy. It will be interesting to see what titles have been contrived for the two young daughters.

It seems that it's mainly in non-reigning families that Salic succession is maintained, although when there's no dynastic Salic heir clearly available, things tend to get complicated, and disputed successions arise.  The reigning families, conforming to modern public opinion, have mostly gone over to absolute primogeniture.  I'm neutral in the actual Savoia royal succession dispute. The title of Duke of Savoy, however, is an ancient one, which pertains to the province of Savoy, which is now located in France. It has always gone by agnatic (Salic) succession, and I think that that ought to continue, and so regardless of which Savoy branch holds it at present, I think that it ought to  eventually pass to one of the two grandsons of Amedeo, Duke of Aosta. 

To the best of my knowlege, Carlo of Two Sicilies (junior branch) uses the title Duke of Castro, and he's evidently conferred the titles of Duchess of Calabria and Duchess of Noto on his two daughters.
Pedro of Two Sicilies (senior branch) uses the title Duke of Calabria, and his son Jaime has evidently succeeded him in the title Duke of Noto. (Jaime was apparently born prior to his parent's marriage, but that sort of thing hardly seems to matter anymore in the non-reigning families).

__________________
Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
azadi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,474
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murtagon
I knew it!

I just knew that the senior, albeit non-dynastic branch, would eventually resort to that move.

I think that even if Emanuele Filiberto had not had any children at all, his father would have given succession rights to his sisters and their children.

Does anyone from them actually want for the monarchy to be restored? The order of succession should be changed only when it's extremely important. This is just out of spite.

After all, King Victor Emmanuel I of Sardinia didn't grant his daughters the right to succeed him, as he recognised that "the law is older than the state", as the Prince of Liechtenstein has put it nicely.

Why are you opposed to the Savoias introducing female succession to the Italian throne, when you support King Mihai's decision to introduce female succession to the Romanian throne in 2007?
MatthewJTaylor

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 277
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

Why are you opposed to the Savoias introducing female succession to the Italian throne, when you support King Mihai's decision to introduce female succession to the Romanian throne in 2007?

Italian monarchism is divided between the two lines and was about to unify until out of spite the elder line have tried to change the rules.
In Romania, King Michael was a reigning king so the change is unlikely to splinter royalism too badly, especially given Margareta's friendship with the House of Windsor and in fact should bolster Romanian royalism since the link to King Michael is clear.

__________________
ceterum censeo caetum europaeum delendum esse
The Scottish Tory - https://sites.google.com/view/scottishtory
Scots for a French Royal Restoration - https://sites.google.com/view/sfrr
Murtagon

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 214
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

Why are you opposed to the Savoias introducing female succession to the Italian throne, when you support King Mihai's decision to introduce female succession to the Romanian throne in 2007?


Because the House of Savoy is not extinct. There are rules, which should not be arbitrarily followed. 

If, for instance, something bad had happened to the Duke of Aosta and his family that had wiped them out, then I don't see* why monarchists couldn't unite around the Prince of Naples or his son. It would be a pragmatic descision.

A pragmatic decision is exactly what King Mihai made in the last years of his life. The heir presumptive (as there was one) was someone not interested in Romanian matters. Therefore, it would have made a lot of sense to change the succession there.

By the way, the Prince of Naples would not have been a pretender today, if cognatic succession had been used before. Which means that the Duke of Bavaria is the legitimate King of Sardinia and Duke of Savoy, while Elizabeth II is the true Queen of Sicily, etc. [rolleyes]

*Actually, I do see, but I think the son is better than the father. Oh, there is also the morganatic branch of Savoy-Villafranca-Soissons.
Wessexman

Registered:
Posts: 1,851
Reply with quote  #14 
I always find it strange that some tender consciences balk at things like male primogeniture or Sallic succession laws, when hereditary monarchy itself is an enclave of the non-democratic and non-egalitarian, by its nature. I suppose you could say why multiple what is distasteful to some modern ears. But what is to stop us ending in absolute primogeniture? As has sadly happened in Britain.
Pallavicini

Registered:
Posts: 58
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windemere
It will be interesting to see what titles have been contrived for the two young daughters. 


Vittoria Cristina is henceforth Princess of Carignano and Marchesa d'Ivrea.

Luisa Giovanna is henceforth Princess of Chieri and Countess of Salemi.


__________________
“We're all born naked, and the rest is drag.”  - RuPaul
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.