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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Baron I believe in the "Divine Right "of Kings.Absolute Monarchy!

You have made that fairly plain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Constantine the Great,

Recognized the authority of the Bishop's Court, as a place of appeal from the state courts.  Not the action of an Absolutists (which would hold the King's Court to be the final Court)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Theodosius the Great,

Granted autonomy to the Goths, not a very Absolutists action do you think?  Letting someone else have the 'last say' over one's subjects.  It certainly indicates that he didn't thing himself absolute ruler within the confines of the Empire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Justinian and Theodora

The Code of Justinian was the collected decisions of the Courts or Law, and he in effect made Rome a nation of Laws - again anathema to an Absolute King
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
,Isabella of Spain the Catholic and Ferdinard

By the time of Isabella the idea that the Pope held higher authority was pretty well established as a Roman Doctrine - no Absolutists can claim to be Catholic by that time.  She made appeal to the Pope of the inquisition to be started in her domains, an Absolutist would have acted as the felt proper, no need to 'see a man in Rome' about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
,Charles the Great or Charlemagne

I'll grant you the illiterate frank my have held to a form of absolutism - May have..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
,Otto the Great,

Now, there you have a absolutist.  Over throwing Popes and the like.  Is that what you truly support? 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
before that Cyrus the Great,

The Law of the Meades and the Persians was unalterable - noway any King could be absolute when he couldn't even rescind his own decrees!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Alexander the Great and later again Catherine the Great, 

I confess I don't know if they support your argument or not.  On the balance of your references above, I'd think that they did not....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Louis the XIV the Sun King,Maximilian and Charles the V of Habsburg,Frederic II of Prussia,Alexander the I,Nicolas I,Alexander  the II and III of Russia and so on.

I'll confess that I've not looked at the whole of this lot, but I did look through your first examples and with the exception of Otto, and perhaps Charles the Great, you've given counter examples to your stated position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
You Baron and others believe in a "watered down" Monarchy with a Parliament   sharing power.That is Oligarchy not Monarchy.
No that is traditional Monarch for the Anglosphere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
"Too many cooks spoil the broth".

I see your 'proverb' and raise you Proverbs 15:22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
Even Jesus believed in Absolute Monarchy.He spoke with Authority and his followers had to accept what he said without question.

Christ is the one Man who would be fit to be an absolute Monarch.  Unfortunately His Kingdom is currently not of this world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
He said I am a King  that is why I came into this World.
The why was to be a witness of the truth:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "John 18:38"

 Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice.
Careful how you misquote God. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
And he appointed one man Peter and he said "What ever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven"

Not down that road again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
He made him absolute Monarch!

If I grant your point (which I don't but IF), how many absolute monarchs can one have in a territory?  I'd think absolute would require only one - so you'd be left with the Pope, and no mere emperor or king.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
So the Pope now is an Absolute Monarch Supreme and Universal over all and in all.

The Pope ain't in me buddy!  We have in us both the Spirit of Christ, but that is the extent of our commingling - through our One Lord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
He has power to make and unmake Kings and Queens.

Which, if true, Utterly destroyes the the theory of any one else being an absolute monarch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
So James I and VI and Charles I were right.
Not only were they not right, they weren't even wrong!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
As now the King of Nepal was right.
The king who failed to bring peace to his kingdom and is now awaiting deposing?  How wrong is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
They should have done what Theodosius the Great and Theodora did.They tricked the Rebellious subjects
Now you advocate that a Monarchy raised to the Throne by the Grace of God resort to trickery - begone spirit of Machiavelli!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
to come to the Hippodrome and paid the Army to massacre them! Rebellion against the Absolute Monarchy is rebellion against  the Absolute and universal Invisible Divine Principle  we call God.

You may wish to explain that theory to the Pope, who found it rather unacceptable - even to the point of excommunication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
TheEmperorsAdvocate with his post presented the Theory of Absolute Monarchy through History.

Yeah, of a protestant Scots King whose own son died as a result of it, and whose people suffered under Cromwell because of it.  Great argument for the Traditional Monarchy, actually!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
And the Divine origin of Kings and the Divine Right of Kings.Monarchs are like "GOD"  on Earth.

I serve a crucified and risen Saviour.  Kings and Queens rule by His Grace and with His Appointment (as do all authorities, even presidents), not by some 'Right' of their own.

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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
Well said Cornelius!
"God on Earth" to their peoples!  They are not Gods themselves, but rather "ambassadors" of the one God.

Baron:
They might not have called it the "Divine right", but Charles V and so many other monarchs knew what it was and lived and believed it.

They are only people, nothing special other than the fact that God chose them to Rule.  Like how he chose all of us to live.  We have the right to do what we want with our bodies and minds,

Uh, no we don't.  Not only does the state impose restrictions (be the monarchies, republics, soviets, tribes, or families), but so does Scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
but God is the one who gets it all started and he is the one who decides after its all over what to do with us then. 
On that we agree - and on earth he has appointed authority to carry the sword with a reason.  Even really bad guys like Nero...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
A king can go sour in the way he rules, but God is the judge.  Who are we to decide but simple humans that always error.

As do kings, simple humans as well.  The Parliament -not this mess we have now, but a real parliament, part of the tricameral system, acts to be the counselors that a true monarch would desire, even if it were not part of the law of the land.


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TheEmperorsAdvocate

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Reply with quote  #18 
You find more to dispute over than I ever imagined Baron. 

It just gets laughable sometimes. 

T.E.A.


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #19 
Let us have the good laugh then.

I do occasionally find the 100% agreement post too,  I try to note those well!

(And on occasion I note where I agree with a point raised in a post whose overall position I don't support....)

This is the only place where I can discuss Monarchy, as a serious topic, so a take the full advantage of it.


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TheEmperorsAdvocate

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Reply with quote  #20 
As I do as well, Baron.

T.E.A.

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-The Emperor Franz Josef, written to his mother just before the seizure of Lombardy-Venetia.



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Reply with quote  #21 

BaronVonServers did Isabella the Catholic asked the Pope or anybody else when she issued a decree to the Jews to be converted or get ready to be expelled?No! She acted with the knowledge and understanding that she was vicegerent of God on Earth and for the good of the True Religion and the good of the Spanish Realm.She acted as Absolute Monarch with the "divine right of Kings"in mind....An Absolute Monarch does not need to rule directly.He can give Autonomy to any State and deligate power and uphold customs and existing laws if he so wishes.He is not obliged to do so.If he does it is because he thinks and judges that this right and expidient to do so. The "divine right"of Kings does not mean a licence to do evil or to be a Tyrant.It means responsibility  and love of humanity and always has the good of all in mind.Cyrus the great gave order for the Jews to return and build their Temple.He issued a decree.He asked nobody what to do.He thought for himself.That is the "divine right"of Kings and Absolute Monarchy again.Jesus was born under the Absolute Monarchy of the Roman Empire and he upholded the System.Give to the Ceasar what belongs to the Ceasar.."he said.Obey the King and his decrees.

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius

BaronVonServers did Isabella the Catholic asked the Pope or anybody else when she issued a decree to the Jews to be converted or get ready to be expelled?No! She acted with the knowledge and understanding that she was vicegerent of God on Earth and for the good of the True Religion and the good of the Spanish Realm.She acted as Absolute Monarch with the "divine right of Kings"in mind....An Absolute Monarch does not need to rule directly.He can give Autonomy to any State and deligate power and uphold customs and existing laws if he so wishes.He is not obliged to do so.If he does it is because he thinks and judges that this right and expidient to do so. The "divine right"of Kings does not mean a licence to do evil or to be a Tyrant.It means responsibility  and love of humanity and always has the good of all in mind.Cyrus the great gave order for the Jews to return and build their Temple.He issued a decree.He asked nobody what to do.He thought for himself.That is the "divine right"of Kings and Absolute Monarchy again.Jesus was born under the Absolute Monarchy of the Roman Empire and he upholded the System.Give to the Ceasar what belongs to the Ceasar.."he said.Obey the King and his decrees.



She acknowledge the Pope as having greater authority.  She wasn't claiming divine right.  Her order of expulsion isn't one I approve of - such acts are among the reasons I don't support unilateralist governments either.
For absolutists, you've got James VI & I, Charles I, and Otto the great, otherwise you're back to using Pagan examples.  I'm not Pagan and don't think they necessarily are the example of how things should be.

Cyrus issued the degree, true enough, but he couldn't un-issue existing ones. I've already pointed that out.

He did indeed say to render to Caesar what is Caesar's.  The Coining of money and the collecting of tax is a proper Royal Prerogative.

As for the Roman Monarchy, rebellion would be unlawful, but desiring another Nero would be 'less than wise', well if one were Christian it would be.

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Reply with quote  #23 

Baron all Kings before Christ and after Christ acted as Supreme Rulers and Absolute Monarchs.From China to Mongolia to Ghengis Khan to the Sultans of Turkey to the Greek Kings and Roman Emperors and always.That is why there are at the top! To rule and Reign! They made decisions and acted with Councils or no Councils.That is what means to be a Monarch! Absolute Monarchy with the "God given Right" and, or  natural right to to rule! This is the plain Truth!...TheEmperorsAdvocate did his perfect research and proved it.If you believe that the King's power should be controled  or checked by a Parliament or you and me or customs or Organized Religion and so on then you are not a true pure Monarchist you or anyone else.That is what means MONARCHY:MONO ARCHI:1 ALONE RULER. One and only Mind thinking and deciding and ruling everything and everyone! Monarchy is Monarchy.Oligarchy is Oligarchy!Democracy is Democracy!I am discussing from the point of Pure and Absolute Monarchy.There are other kinds of Monarchies mixed with Oligarchy and Democracy.You have your own preference of a kind of Monarchy.Mine is the Pure and Absolute.There is no point of argueing.Peace!   

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius

Baron all Kings before Christ and after Christ acted as Supreme Rulers and Absolute Monarchs.

The terms aren't the same, and neither is true.

All is a rather strong word.  I'd suggest you (especially) refrain from its use until you understand its meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
From China to Mongolia to Ghengis Khan to the Sultans of Turkey to the Greek Kings and Roman Emperors and always.

Do you remember this smallish Kingdom, predates Rome - called the 'Kingdom of Israel'? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
That is why there are at the top! To rule and Reign!

Right, and why would that require 'divine right'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
They made decisions and acted with Councils or no Councils.That is what means to be a Monarch! Absolute Monarchy with the "God given Right" and, or  natural right to to rule!
 

Which are you defending?  Absolute Monarchs, or the Divine Right of Kings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
This is the plain Truth!...

Self contradictory statements (like those you made above) can never be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
TheEmperorsAdvocate did his perfect research and proved it.

You obviously didn't read his post, nor my reply, nor what you just wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
If you believe that the King's power should be controled  or checked by a Parliament or you and me or customs or Organized Religion and so on then you are not a true pure Monarchist

Once more with the slander I'll try dead level best to ignore you.  You'd not dare say that withing striking range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
you or anyone else.


Cornelius, please confine your little personal assaults to me, after all I'm the one that has you all in a dither, not the other (more rational) members of this forum.




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Reply with quote  #25 

Baron I did not mean to offend you.I do not understand why you are so upset.I did not say that you are not a Monarchist.I meant you are not the kind of Monarchist I believe a Monarchist should be.An Absolutist and The Divine Right type.You are a true Monarchist like everyone else but of a different kind.Sorry I did not mean to offend or upset you.Peace!

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #26 
Apology accepted (I am constrained to forgive, and find it actually feels OK after a while when I do) - but please do watch what you write (better than I did in my reply above! ).  You write  'must' and 'are not' and 'all' an awful lot when there is in truth no 'must' that you set, and you don't determine 'who is or is not', and all is much more inclusive than just you and a few friends.



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Reply with quote  #27 

My avatar is the Sun Shield. It is the symbol of Apollo, the god of the Doric Greeks and this shield was only held by the Spartan kings.

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Reply with quote  #28 

Mine is the Coat of Arms of the Cooper family, my family and name. A knightly family, originally all coopers came from a family who made barrels, in the middle ages it was a prized item the barrel and the trade flurished making them rich, and many of them became knights, even crusaders. Notice how it bears the same colours as the english coat of arms, it even bears three lions. Time has not been kind to this family, the barrel trade being learned by others and running some coopers out of bussines, and everyone knows that knights as in the medieval sense simply melted away. Some distant distant relatives still hold some nobility, the Ashley-Cooper's, the head of whome is an earl of somewhere. My personal claims to nobility are quite weak, Im obviously decended from the coopers, but also have very distant blood ties to the house of Orange. You know the decendent of the youngest of the youngest of the youngest etc, that sort of thing.


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #29 
Still, that's better than to have arrived in the new world as a 'Guest' of the King.....

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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVonServers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius

Baron all Kings before Christ and after Christ acted as Supreme Rulers and Absolute Monarchs.

The terms aren't the same, and neither is true.

All is a rather strong word.  I'd suggest you (especially) refrain from its use until you understand its meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
From China to Mongolia to Ghengis Khan to the Sultans of Turkey to the Greek Kings and Roman Emperors and always.

Do you remember this smallish Kingdom, predates Rome - called the 'Kingdom of Israel'? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
That is why there are at the top! To rule and Reign!

Right, and why would that require 'divine right'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
They made decisions and acted with Councils or no Councils.That is what means to be a Monarch! Absolute Monarchy with the "God given Right" and, or  natural right to to rule!
 

Which are you defending?  Absolute Monarchs, or the Divine Right of Kings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
This is the plain Truth!...

Self contradictory statements (like those you made above) can never be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
TheEmperorsAdvocate did his perfect research and proved it.

You obviously didn't read his post, nor my reply, nor what you just wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
If you believe that the King's power should be controled  or checked by a Parliament or you and me or customs or Organized Religion and so on then you are not a true pure Monarchist

Once more with the slander I'll try dead level best to ignore you.  You'd not dare say that withing striking range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmperorsAdvocate
you or anyone else.


Cornelius, please confine your little personal assaults to me, after all I'm the one that has you all in a dither, not the other (more rational) members of this forum.



I just thought I'd question why a post quoting only a post by Cornelius switched to claiming the post it was quoting was by The Emperors Advocate.


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