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Ethiomonarchist

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Do you really think that if the number of lapsed Catholics in France was only ten percent instead of sixty percent, radical Muslims wouldn't hate the west?


The number or percentage of lapsed Catholics makes no difference to them, they hate the west because it doesn't follow their brand of Islam.

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They hate the West because of over a century and a half of colonial exploitation and interference, not because of its religion and certainly not because it is multicultural.


No, that was the motivation of pan-arabists like Nasser, Baathists like Havez al Assad and Saddam Hussien, and the liberationists like Yasser Arafat.  They were eager to include non-Islamic people like the Druze and the Christians in thier movements against the former colonial powers.  Todays Islamic revolutionaries are motivated purely by their dream of restoring an Islamic Caliphate and spreading what they see as the true faith to the entire world.  The Islamists regard these liberation era leaders as corrupt, westernized despots who they hold in contempt.  They make no bones about this.  Do you think the constant bloodbath between Christians and Muslims in Nigeria is about opposition to western colonialism?  Really?  As to multiculturalism, the extreme Islamists are as disdainful of that as the western right wingers are.  It's the one thing they have in common.

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Religion and "traditional values" are not a part of politics any longer, and anyone who says that they are is likely trying to get you to vote for them.


You obviously haven't been to anywhere in the Middle East or anywhere in Africa where this statement is patently not true.  As to the west...give it time. 

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Napoleon III, Vittorio Emmanuele II and Franz Josef all being Catholics didn't stop the Risorgimento.


No but the Risorgimento was not about religion at all, it was about nationalism and secular power politics.  If Catholicsm had come in to play at all the Risorgimento would not have happened period as it's crowning momement was stripping the Pope of the Papal states. 

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Ethiomonarchist, do orthodox in ethiopia have a problem with all the evangelical protestant missionaries trying to convert people? Alot of catholics and orthodox are more annoyed by them than muslims... Why doesn't the orthodox church try to convert pagans before they get converted by the evangelicals?


The problem that Ethiopian Orthodox had with the evangelicals was that their missionary work was directed not at the non-Christian population, but at the Orthodox Christian population.  It is the same in many other mostly Orthodox and Catholic countries where evangelicals have clashed with the older established churches.  It was not about bringing Christ to people who didn't know him, but about telling already Christian people that they were worshiping him wrong.  It is a marked contrast to the Lutherans and the Catholic missionaries who came in the last century who focused on non-Christian populations.  Today however, hostility between Christian sects in Ethiopia is fading considerably.  The reason is the rise of Wahabist Islam and it's increasingly hostile attitude to all Christians.  The biggest missionary movement in Ethiopia among it's fast disappearing animist population is Wahabist Islam.  The western press doesn't show much of the church burnings that have happened in recent years, but there have been many Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Churches burned to the ground and parishoners butchered or put to flight. 

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I know that the ethiopian church has missionaries in Jamaica to try to convert Rastafarians, why aren't there more of them around ethiopia and africa in general?


I think you have been misinformed.  The largest Ethiopian Orthodox Missions are in Africa, not the Americas.  Ethiopian Orthodoxy has spread far beyond it's highland base in Ethiopia and continues to grow everyday.  There are large Ethiopian missions in South Sudan, Kenya, and in South Africa as well.

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Originally Posted by jovan66102
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Originally Posted by 18th_Brumaire
The main movement for freedom in Poland came from from a trade union (collective gasp).


A solidly Catholic trade union, based on the Social Magisterium of the Catholic Church, headed by a devout Catholic.


This. The Left never gets its facts straight. And you just need to look at how strong right-wing national movements are in these countries. No love for Reds there!


I'm fairly middle of the road, so to me right wing national movements are in many ways as bad as the commies.  However there can be no doubt that the Catholic Church provided the backbone for the labor movement in Poland.  Indeed the Catholic Church was an important component in the labor movement here in the United States.  Take a look at the legions of labor groups that march in a St. Patrick's day Parade here in New York past the Cardinal Archbishop standing in front of his Cathedral on 5th Avenue.  Other than on the issue of abortion, the Catholic Church in America is not very right leaning at all.

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Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
18th_Brumaire

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Reply with quote  #77 
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Originally Posted by Ethiomonarchist
Many excellent points.


Thanks for a reasonable response.

Nigeria -- no, of course the Muslims don't hate the Christians "because of Western colonialism". The Muslims wouldn't be in a position to compete with the Christians - period - were it not for Western colonialism. First, the ethnic groups in Nigeria are almost completely distinct and many have less in common with their fellow "Nigerians" than they do their neighbors to the west and north. Second, the northern Sahel region had no business being tied to the southern coasts beyond some kind of Victorian-era "give them a port" thinking. Third, British colonialism eradicated most diversity within the larger ethnic groups, meaning that the semi-feudal, Islamic Hausa were radicalized and the Igbo westernized and converted to Christianity. Surprisingly, the British policy actually tended towards support of the Hausa and the northern emirates over the westernized and educated south - we can even see the legacy of this in the outbreak of the Nigerian-Biafran war.  That's not even getting into the whole Cameroon secession problem, or the presence of the Yoruba. So, no, I don't think one of the Boko Haram wakes up in the morning and thinks "time to throw off the shackles of Western colonialism" - but I do think that the west is, directly or indirectly, responsible for most of the problems plaguing the country of Nigeria.

The Risorgimento completely sidestepping the issue of religion was kind of my point, and yeah, I was only talking about Western politics, not Africa and not the Middle East.

Radical Islamists and western nationalists actually have more in common than either one would like to admit, I think.



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Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #78 

Christians in the Middle East and North Africa are in a hazardous position during these tense times.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/main/christians-under-fire-in-libya/


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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #79 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18th_Brumaire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Communists_of_the_Republic_of_Moldova Oh, looks like the Right never gets its facts straight? Come on, give me a break.


That's only one country. And the "Communist" government in Moldova (a country which, by the way, really shouldn't exist as it belongs to Romania) wasn't Communist at all. Nowhere else in the former Eastern Bloc has a party using that name returned to power.

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Anyway, my point was that Solidarity was a trade union, something many on the right completely and utterly abhor, not that it "wasn't influenced by Catholic teaching", which apparently means I'm not getting my facts straight - somehow. I wouldn't be overjoyed by right-wing national movements, by the way. I've wanted to avoid making the obvious comparison but honestly, the willful ignorance at work here is astounding - a right-wing national movement rose in Germany in the 1930s. It didn't do too well for the world.


Wilful ignorance? Using Nazi Germany as an example? Frankly, this is where you fall into the trap. That you can't show national pride, defend your national identity or dissent from Equality & Diversity without being accused of being a "fascist" or "Nazi" is the catcall of the Left that's done so much damage. That's not freedom or justice - that's an Orwellian nightmare.

And precisely this is what Eastern European countries have actually dissented against. That's why countries like Poland, Lithuania and Hungary all made moves to equate Communism and Nazism, something many in the West simply will not do.

To be back on topic, there are those who say the problem goes back to the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, and in a sense that's right. But the same mistakes were made in Arab lands that were made in Europe in the same era.
18th_Brumaire

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Reply with quote  #80 
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Originally Posted by DavidV

That's only one country. And the "Communist" government in Moldova (a country which, by the way, really shouldn't exist as it belongs to Romania) wasn't Communist at all. Nowhere else in the former Eastern Bloc has a party using that name returned to power.


... so what? Apparently, if I don't explicitly mention that Solidarity was supported by the Church - not even closely related to my earlier point, by the way, as as has been said before Catholic social teaching is largely left of center - the Left "never gets its facts straight", but if you make a sweeping statement that fails to mention not only the Communist party of Moldova but also the fairly popular (20%) Communist party of Russia (arguably a party wearing only the mask of Lenin, but I digress) then I don't get to say the same? Like I said, give me a break. It's a minor point, I agree, but the point was to get you to look more closely at the whole of my argument and not just one tiny little sentence you wanted to use to discredit it.

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Wilful ignorance? Using Nazi Germany as an example? Frankly, this is where you fall into the trap. That you can't show national pride, defend your national identity or dissent from Equality & Diversity without being accused of being a "fascist" or "Nazi" is the catcall of the Left that's done so much damage. That's not freedom or justice - that's an Orwellian nightmare.


This is why I didn't want to use Nazi Germany as an example, because I knew you'd say something like this, but it's absolutely ridiculous. No, equality and diversity are right, the former especially being a fundamental right of which every single person on earth is deserving. You can show national pride - I'm pretty sure I don't go around calling people who celebrate the 4th of July Nazis. What you can't do is equate radical, right-wing movements like the Golden Dawn in Greece or, yes, the Nazis in Germany with some sort of ideological "good". Nationalism in the Balkans is not a good thing.

By the way, if you think some guy with a liberal arts degree calling you a fascist is an "Orwellian nightmare", you should probably go reread 1984.

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And precisely this is what Eastern European countries have actually dissented against. That's why countries like Poland, Lithuania and Hungary all made moves to equate Communism and Nazism, something many in the West simply will not do.


Yes, communism is bad. I don't think you'll find many in America that disagree with you. Anti-communist sentiment is very, very common and I have no idea what you're talking about here. Both are totalitarian ideologies that deprive the individual of his rights, make a mockery of legitimacy and have ultimately failed in establishing a stable state, and it's for that reason that I oppose them, not because Karl Marx was a demon who hid imps named Lenin and Stalin in his beard.

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"What is there against him? That throne. Take away Louis Philippe the king, there remains the man. And the man is good. He is good at times even to the point of being admirable." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #81 

 

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Originally Posted by Baron

They can't get him on the speech itself.

So they're reaching to find anything, anything at all that they can get him on.

  They'll keep up the 'image of the republic' while marching forward into the dictatorship.



This guy isn't easy to defend, but he is able to say what he did legally.   I'm afraid that the government, if motivated, could find anyone to be a criminal if they found it expedient.   Who knows whether being a member of a monarchy forum could be twisted in a way to seem rebellious or criminal.   It only matters whether the government wants to do it.  

No, I think this is a fundamental clash of cultures, where the west believes in the freedom of speech, and another culture has no conception of such a right.   Their dogma demands universal obedience, while ours, I suppose, thinks that there is a universal right.    I'm willing to restrict this to a right that should be upheld in our own country and not compromised with people who have nothing to do with us.

 


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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #82 
Freedom of speech is one of the trickiest topics. I out of principle do not insult or denigrate any religion, but unfettered free speech should be applied equally to everyone without exceptions, or equally to nobody at all. You can't have different rules for different groups.
Ponocrates

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I generally respect other religions except for those who threaten to kill me unless I respect them.   Then I get annoyed and want to pop their flimsy bubble.    Enraging them is like shoving a stick in an ant pile.   As any kid knows, it's strangely amusing.
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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #84 

I hold to the 'having the right to do it, doesn't make it right to do it' theory.

There are many things which I have the 'right' to do which I cannot do and be 'right'.

That doesn't mean I wish to remove the 'right to do it', only that I must answer for having done it. 


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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #85 
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/21/world/africa/libya-benghazi-counter-protest/index.html?eref=igoogledmn_topstories

In positive and uplifting news, Libyans outraged at the consulate attack which killed Ambassador Stevens have just stormed the headquarters of Ansar al-Sharia, a local Islamist militia which has been in blamed in part for the attacks, and drove them out, all without firing a shot. Thousands of angry pro-American Libyans drove the Islamists away, yay!
18th_Brumaire

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Reply with quote  #86 
That is definitely good news.
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"What is there against him? That throne. Take away Louis Philippe the king, there remains the man. And the man is good. He is good at times even to the point of being admirable." - Victor Hugo, Les Miserables
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #87 
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/09/27/nakoula-anti-islamic-film-probation-violation/70001300/1#.UGTzmk3R7LG

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula has been taken into custody and has been charged with violating the terms of his probation. These terms included a ban on using false identities and on using computers or the Internet except for work-related purposes and only with the approval of his probation officer. He has not been charged with any crime relating to the making of one of the worst films ever made, Innocence of Muslims. Making crap is not a crime, apparently.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-the-mideast-a-pro-american-pushback/2012/09/24/d1196ee4-0678-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html
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