Monarchy Forum
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 2      Prev   1   2
jovan66102

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,580
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
The "reforms" of Vatican II actually make the Roman Catholic Church less attractive to this traditionalist High Church Anglican, but then I suppose I'm not a "real" Protestant...

I am reminded of being in St Clement's 'Protestant Episcopal' Church, in Philadelphia, in 1969. As you probably know, it is one of the 'Highest' Anglo-Catholic Churches in the States. I saw a gentleman in clerical dress in the nave. I asked him if he was on staff. He replied, no, that he was a Roman who came to St Clement's to remind himself of what it had been like in his own Church!

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #17 
S. Clement's is one of the top churches in the U.S. I'd like to visit.  Unfortunately I get the impression that their current Rector seems to be increasingly anti-Roman, more so than is customary for Anglo-Catholics, and I fear they may embrace WO eventually.
Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,534
Reply with quote  #18 
It probably won't please you, royalcello, but I thought the piece you labelled as anti-Catholic spot on, and with nothing mean or antagonistic about it. The comments also as far as I read were very good. To me, this seemed just what an Anglo-Catholic pastor should be like, resolute for tradition apart from the horrible and not especially Scripturally justified bits of it, and not in the least susceptible to Rome, which insists on all those parts and also on its own no more justified authority.
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #19 
I did say "anti-Roman."  Unlike Roman Catholics, I do consider Fr. Reid (originally of the Scottish Episcopal Church) a Catholic.  Being Anglican myself I might not mind what he says so much if it weren't for his obvious contempt for opponents of WO, which is frankly a little odd for the Rector of an Anglo-Catholic parish that has never had any female clergy, does not even allow the women of the choir to wear cassock & surplice, probably attracts a significant number of socially liberal but liturgically traditionalist people (including gay men) who like it that way, and even maintains the Roman custom of priestly celibacy.

Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,534
Reply with quote  #20 
You did. I don't see any contempt for WO opponents in this material, just disagreement. Disagreement is allowed, surely, though contempt would be wrong.
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #21 
Maybe "contempt" was too strong a word (though bear in mind that I've read all of his posts on Catholic/Anglican controversies and may have been thinking of something else), but any vocal support for WO seems to me to be at odds with the traditional ethos of that parish as I understand it.  Why not just avoid the issue as my parish (though not self-consciously Anglo-Catholic) and our Rector do? 

Anglo-Catholics have historically preferred to emphasize similarities to, rather than differences from, Rome, even holding eventual corporate reunion as the long-term goal (but not just yet!).  Fr. Reid clearly has other ideas, though it's to his credit that he also rebukes "Liberal Episcopal Fascists" (I generally dislike careless loose of that F-word but I know what he means). 
jovan66102

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,580
Reply with quote  #22 
Well, I don't know about the current rector, but in 1969, virtually the only thing that distinguished St Clement's from a pre-Conciliar Roman Church outwardly was the fact that their mass was in English. As far as teaching went, at that point, Papal Supremacy was the only difference. They accepted, as did every Anglo-Catholic of my acquaintance (and I knew a lot, since my foster father was in the first class at Nashotah House that accepted married men, having observed the 'Roman' rule of celibacy for over a century!) all Roman doctrines on transubstantiation, the Assumption and Immaculate Conception, etc.

At that point they had the longest series of daily masses (a VERY Anglo-Catholic thing following Roman usage) in the US, while Nashotah house had the longest west of the Mississippi, and the longest running Tuesday novenas to Our Lady of Perpetual Help in the Anglican Communion.

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
DavidV

Registered:
Posts: 5,100
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pragmatist
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
When did politico-religious anti-Catholicism cease to be a factor on continental Europe? Had it died down more or less before 1789? Through the 19th and 20th century the main enemies of Catholicism (and its associated monarchies, by extension) came not from other faiths but from Jacobins and later Marxists. This was evident in the Sonderbund War in Switzerland and the German Kulturkampf, where secular liberals were the main enemy of the Catholic cause, as they would be in Latin America.


Generally speaking, some of the reforms of Vatican II (such as opening the vernacular Bible to the laity) went a long way in making the Catholic Church seem less like the Whore of Babylon to evangelical Protestants. In 1789 Protestants still almost universally confessed the Pope as antichrist and were willing to take up arms to avoid subjugation to him.


By 1789, the interreligious conflicts had subsided. It wasn't "Catholic v Protestant" anymore, it became (as it has ever since) Catholicism v Jacobinism and later Bolshevism.
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #24 
...[Northern] Ireland excepted, of course... 

There was still a fair amount of the old British Protestant anti-Catholicism around in 1908 when Protestants were horrified by Edward VII's attendance at the Portuguese Embassy's requiem mass for his murdered cousins Carlos I and Luiz Filipe, the first time since 1689 a British sovereign had attended a Roman Catholic mass.   The fundamentally tolerant and decent Edward VII, of course, was quite properly far more appalled by the murder of a Knight of the Garter than by any alleged errors of Rome...
DavidV

Registered:
Posts: 5,100
Reply with quote  #25 
Not to mention Ian Paisley's remarks towards the Royal Family in the late 1950s. It's true that politico-religious anti-Catholicism did persist in Britain and the Netherlands longer than most. Yet the irony lost on Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, obviously, is how similar they really are to each other in their approach and practice of their faith...
jovan66102

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,580
Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
...[Northern] Ireland excepted, of course... 

There was still a fair amount of the old British Protestant anti-Catholicism around in 1908 when Protestants were horrified by Edward VII's attendance at the Portuguese Embassy's requiem mass for his murdered cousins Carlos I and Luiz Filipe, the first time since 1689 a British sovereign had attended a Roman Catholic mass.   The fundamentally tolerant and decent Edward VII, of course, was quite properly far more appalled by the murder of a Knight of the Garter than by any alleged errors of Rome...

How about in 1927, when the Proposed Book of Common Prayer, already passed by both Houses of Convocation and the Lords, was presented to the Commons for approval. It was voted down with shouts of 'No Popery!'

And the opposition was led by an Englishman, not an Irishman,  Sir William Joynson-Hicks, Bt. Wikipedia has this to say:

Quote:
However a similar resolution was defeated in the House of Commons on December 15, 1927 when the MPs William Joynson-Hicks and Rosslyn Mitchell "reached and inflamed all the latent Protestant prejudices in the House" and argued strongly against it on the grounds that the proposed book was "papistical" and was a restoration of the Roman Mass and implied the doctrine of Transubstantiation.


__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
jovan66102

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,580
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
The fundamentally tolerant and decent Edward VII, of course, was quite properly far more appalled by the murder of a Knight of the Garter than by any alleged errors of Rome...

However, I remember having heard as a young Anglo-Catholic that His Majesty died with a copy of 'Anglo-Catholic Prayers for Church of England People' on his bedside table. If my memory serves, that excellent little prayer book contained just about every one of the 'alleged errors of Rome'.

__________________
'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.