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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #1 
Coming soon. By the way, a pretty decent amount of work by me found about 85 dynasties in Egyptian history. Also a little over 600 kings and queens.

I will leave you with an interesting story about the Pharaoh Ramesses II in the 1970s:

The mummy of Ramesses II was decaying in 1974, causing panic in the archaeological community. So the Egyptian government promptly put it on a plane to France for medical treatment, giving Ramesses II a passport listing his occupation as "king (deceased)". When the mummy arrived at the airport just outside of Paris, the French Republic received the mummy with the full military honors befitting a king. The mummy was driven to the hospital, and the cause of the rapid decaying was discovered to be a fungal infection, which was promptly treated and cured. Afterwards, Ramesses II was flown back to Egypt, and was paid a visit by President Anwar Sadat. Interesting story, huh? And, yes, it's all true.

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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #2 
Before I eventually start trying to summarize all the dynasties of Egypt, would anybody like to hear me justify an interpretation of Fuad II as actually being the Pharaoh of Egypt?
Peter

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Reply with quote  #3 
Go ahead, but I will be a hard sell. I regard the position of Pharaoh as inextricably linked to the pagan religion of ancient Egypt. As such, the Ptolemies are the last who can reasonably be regarded as holding it.
jovan66102

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Go ahead, but I will be a hard sell. I regard the position of Pharaoh as inextricably linked to the pagan religion of ancient Egypt. As such, the Ptolemies are the last who can reasonably be regarded as holding it.


This! IIRC, Cleopatra would have been the last Pharaoh.

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
KYMonarchist

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Cleopatra VII is indeed generally regarded as the last pharaoh.

However, it is rather notable, I think, that ancient Egyptian king lists have been found going all the way up to Decius. Yes, Decius the Roman Emperor.

Funny that the Egyptians seem to have regarded the Roman Emperors as Pharaohs while they were in Egypt while modern scholarship generally places the Pharaonic age as ending in 30 BCE.

If anybody wants a link, I'll try and get you all a link to the book proving the existence of such a king list, luckily I managed to find it on Google Search.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #6 
I must confess to never having previously heard of Decius, but then there an awful lot of Roman Emperors. It is true that the Emperors up to Constantine the Great were a) pagans and b) ruled Egypt, but as far as I know none of them ever assumed the persona of Pharaoh, participated in the specifically Egyptian rituals, considered themselves the son of Ra or took any title from their rule of Egypt. Were the Achaemenids considered Pharaohs? I don't suppose so. Alexander was and the Ptolemies were, but then they did the necessary things to be Pharaoh. If the Mongols had conquered Japan as they tried to, then I doubt that the Japanese would have considered the Mongol ruler to be Tenno, a very comparable case in my opinion.
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #7 
Actually, Peter there are indeed depictions of Emperors such as Trajan acting as the Pharaoh of Egypt, and no less an authority than Manetho lists the Achaemenids as Pharaohs of Egypt, making up two of Egypt's dynasties, a system that Manetho of course invented.
jovan66102

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Actually, Peter there are indeed depictions of Emperors such as Trajan acting as the Pharaoh of Egypt, and no less an authority than Manetho lists the Achaemenids as Pharaohs of Egypt, making up two of Egypt's dynasties, a system that Manetho of course invented.


Even if this is true, is there any evidence that any Muslim ruler of Egypt, including Fuad II, ever participated in the Pharaonic rites or claimed the title?

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'Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.' C.S. Lewis God save Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, etc.! Vive le Très haut, très puissant et très excellent Prince, Louis XX, Par la grâce de Dieu, Roi de France et de Navarre, Roi Très-chrétien!
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jovan66102
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Actually, Peter there are indeed depictions of Emperors such as Trajan acting as the Pharaoh of Egypt, and no less an authority than Manetho lists the Achaemenids as Pharaohs of Egypt, making up two of Egypt's dynasties, a system that Manetho of course invented.


Even if this is true, is there any evidence that any Muslim ruler of Egypt, including Fuad II, ever participated in the Pharaonic rites or claimed the title?


No, but I am mainly trying to demonstrate that legally he could be considered the successor of the Pharaohs. I feel I should also point to the example of Akhenaten, who infamously attempted to abolish the worship of the gods of Egypt in favor of his new monotheistic Atenist religion, and yet is still considered a Pharaoh. The guy was Tutankhamun's daddy, for crying out loud! The apparent standard in ancient Egypt for how to refer to his years, and the years of any Pharaoh not deemed legitimate at the time, was to simply call them 'empty years'. Again, though, I mainly want to demonstrate the continuity of Egyptian monarchy up until its appalling abolition on June 18th, 1953. I also feel this would give Elizabeth II a connection to the Pharaohs, given that it has already been established that Fuad II sent a representative to her coronation. I just think that would be neat.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #10 
I don't buy it. The cases of both the Achaemenids and the pagan Roman Emperors is debatable, though I personally don't consider either of them as qualifying; they were foreign rulers and Egypt was a province of their empire, as opposed to it being their kingdom, or even one of their kingdoms. I don't see Muslim or for that matter Christian rulers as open to debate, they cannot possibly call themselves or be called Pharaoh. When the Turkish Sultan captured Constantinople, did he become Roman Emperor thereby? I don't think so. And yes I do know that the title was claimed. The claim, however, was not accompanied by the necessary conversion to Orthodox Christianity, therefore was invalid. And it would be just as necessary for a Muslim ruler of Egypt to convert to the ancient native religion in order to be considered Pharaoh -- a title I am sure none of them ever claimed.
Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #11 
The Ptolemies came close to making this conversion, who synthesized the Greek and Egyptian religions with new or adapted cults and rituals.

For example, the god Harpocrates:



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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In late Greek mythology as developed in Ptolemaic Alexandria, Harpocrates is the god of silence. Harpocrates was adapted by the Greeks from the Egyptian child god Horus. To the ancient Egyptians, Horus represented the newborn Sun, rising each day at dawn. When the Greeks conquered Egypt under Alexander the Great, they transformed the Egyptian Horus into their Hellenistic god known as Harpocrates, a rendering from Egyptian Har-pa-khered or Heru-pa-khered (meaning "Horus the Child").

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Ponocrates

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Reply with quote  #12 
And here is a bust of Ptolemy I:



And Cleopatra VII (the famous one):








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"For every monarchy overthrown the sky becomes less brilliant, because it loses a star. A republic is ugliness set free." - Anatole France

Personal Motto: "Deō regī patriaeque fidelis."
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