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azadi

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
You didn't respond properly to my points at all. Burke was largely right. Whatever lofty ideals some of the revolutionaries may have held, and whatever calm and sensible voices may occasionally have been added to the din, it was nearly from beginning a matter mostly of abstract and idealistic folly at its best. It contrasts markedly with the good sense of the American revolutionaries. The chaos of the later French Revolution was not an accident, and neither, I would say, is the subsequent lack of stability in France unrelated to that revolution.

France hasn't lacked stability. The Third Republic lasted for 70 years. France avoided totalitarian regimes during the 20th century, unlike Russia and Germany. France suffered from political instability from 1940 to 1958 because of World War II and the Algerian crisis, not because of the legacy of the French Revolution. The current political instability in France is caused by Muslim mass immigration and globalization, not by the legacy of the French Revolution.
Ideological republicanism is far stronger in France than in Germany. Most Germans don't care about restoring the Hohenzollern monarchy, but they aren't ideological republicans. Restoring the monarchy in a country, where the vast majority of the population are ideological republicans, is next to impossible. Restoring the monarchy in a country, where the vast majority of the population doesn't care about restoring the monarchy, but aren't ideological republicans, is unlikely to happen, but it isn't a lost cause.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #32 
The French Third Republic was well-known for its stability, of course. Obviously, external events and particular incidents have had a role to play; I would never suggest otherwise. There is always more than one cause at work in such matters. But the continual political instability and poor governance of France since the revolution was an important underlying cause in France's ongoing problems.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #33 
I once claimed that French monarchists ought to support an Orleans restoration, because Jean-Christophe Bonaparte isn't a descendant of Napoleon, but I have changed my mind, because I have realized that an Orleans restoration is a rejection of the legacy of Napoleon. In addition, most present-day Orleanists are Fusionists rather than supporters of the July Monarchy. Fusionism is no better than Legitimism.
I'm not opposed to France remaining a republic, because Jean-Christophe Bonaparte isn't a descendant of Napoleon, but I will recognize Jean-Christophe Bonaparte as the rightful monarch of France, if he is elected Emperor of the French, because he is a relative of Napoleon.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #34 
Boney was a usurper whose rightful legacy is Trafalgar and Waterloo.

Vive Le Roi!
bator

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Boney was a usurper whose rightful legacy is Trafalgar and Waterloo.

Vive Le Roi!


hear hear vive le roi
azadi

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Reply with quote  #36 
I don't support strict legitimism. The new king of a restored monarchy ought to be a descendant of the formerly reigning royal dynasty, but the parliament is entitled to choose the new king from among the descendants of the formerly reigning dynasty. I'm a semi-legitimist. 

azadi

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Boney was a usurper whose rightful legacy is Trafalgar and Waterloo.

Vive Le Roi!

Europe would have been better off, if Napoleon hadn't invaded Russia. Europe (except Russia and Britain) would have been united as a monarchy.
Most French monarchists are sadly Royalists rather than Bonapartists. That's why I want France to remain a republic. France being a republic isn't a rejection of the legacy of Napoleon, because Napoleon was a republican, before he became Emperor of the French. A Capetian restoration in France will be a rejection of the legacy of Napoleon. I'm not opposed to Jean-Christophe Bonaparte being elected Emperor of the French, because Napoleon III wasn't a descendant of Napoleon. Napoleon III was a nephew of Napoleon.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #38 
A Capetian restoration is unlikely, but it has little to do with Boney's dubious legacy. That's nonsense.

Vive Le Too! Long live King Jean of France!
azadi

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
A Capetian restoration is unlikely, but it has little to do with Boney's dubious legacy. That's nonsense.

Vive Le Too! Long live King Jean of France!

That's why I'm opposed to a Capetian restoration. The lack of Bonapartists on this forum is strange.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #40 
Maybe because committed monarchists don't tend to be Bonapartists. The likelihood of a Bonapartist restoration is even less than a Capetian one.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Maybe because committed monarchists don't tend to be Bonapartists. The likelihood of a Bonapartist restoration is even less than a Capetian one.

I don't reject the legacy of 1789, unlike most members of this forum, but I reject the legacies of 1917 and 1979. Monarchists ought to embrace the legacy of the French Revolution in order to avoid appearing to be defenders of feudalism and absolute monarchy. Monarchists ought to support democratic constitutional monarchies and nationalism and reject Communism, Nazism and Islamism instead of supporting nostalgia for the Ancien Regime. The main alternative to Western liberalism and leftism is right-wing populism, not nostalgia for the Ancien Regime. 

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #42 
No one said anything about nostalgia for the Ancien Regime, whatever that means. Restoring the Capetians doesn't necessarily mean returning to the constitutional arrangements of 1788.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
No one said anything about nostalgia for the Ancien Regime, whatever that means. Restoring the Capetians doesn't necessarily mean returning to the constitutional arrangements of 1788.

Most supporters of the Orleans claim to the French throne on this forum are Fusionists rather than supporters of the July Monarchy.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #44 
So what? Firstly, there's nothing wrong with that. Secondly, it doesn't mean the Capetian claim itself must represent a fusionist position, even if there were something wrong with that. It isn't even clear what you mean by nostalgia for the Ancien Regime. The strictest use of that phrase might imply wishing to revive it in full, but you now seem to mean any who are critical of the general tendency of the Revolution as it happened.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #45 
Again, the Capetian/Orleans claim itself doesn't have to be fusionist. But also, what you mean by the legacy of the Revolution is ambiguous. One doesn't have to wish to revive the Ancien Regime wholesale to think the Revolution as a it concretely existed was mostly folly. Burke thought the same, and he wasn't a defender of royal absolutism or feudalism. Again, we can contrast the relatively sensible and moderate courses of the British Glorious Revolution and the American Revolution with the excesses of the French from even early on.
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