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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #1 
http://www.english.rfi.fr/france/20120922-french-far-right-leader-le-pen-calls-ban-islamic-headscarf-and-jewish-skullcap

The problem is that the defence of liberal secularism is fundamentally wrong, because it is precisely liberal secularism which is the root cause of today's ills.

Secular and liberal nationalism is fundamentally an inherent contradiction that will never work and will never solve anything. Once more, Western Europe gets this wrong, and Eastern Europe gets it right, where a strongly conservative and Christian form of nationalism is much more prevalent, especially but not exclusively in Catholic countries. One movement is based in liberal democracy and extolls the virtues of a liberal society, the other movement is based on a struggle against tyranny and extolls the fundamentals of the nation against evil ideologies. I'll take the latter over the former thank you very much.
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #2 
Long live liberal secularism! It is the system that preserves mankind's rights! Down with the Iranian theocracy! Down with Salafism!

LONG LIVE FREEDOM AND LIBERTY! NO MORE NORTH KOREAS!
jovan66102

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KYMonarchist
Long live liberal secularism! It is the system that preserves mankind's rights! Down with the Iranian theocracy! Down with Salafism!

LONG LIVE FREEDOM AND LIBERTY! NO MORE NORTH KOREAS!


You, Sir, are a left wing, snot nosed troll. I notice that this post has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, which addresses Europe, not Iran, not Salafism and not North Korea. Do you have anything intelligent to say? (I doubt it.)

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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #4 
Yes it is a bit much of a hyperbole. And to even compare Salafism, IRI and North Korea to national conservatism (let alone grouped with each other) is beyond the realms of absurdity. In France, there is cleraly more than one brand of nationalism. The new liberal secular brand of it is clearly invented by Le Pen and would seem more akin to Geert Wilders' own right-liberal program, which I don't have much time for either, for the same reasons. All strains of French monarchism are more or less included in the "nationalist" category since Legitimists, Orleanists and Bonapartists can all present themselves and their version of monarchy as representing such, besides an anti-EU agenda.

Historical differences, specifically the anti-Communist struggle among other things, ensure that conservative Christian-oriented nationalism remains strong and represent the more ideal "traditionalist conservative" model that conservatives like me prefer. To me, it's the only way to counter the challenges we are facing, than simply compromising with the very things that have led to this whole mess.

Hence I would put Orban, Kaczynski, etc as being further right on the spectrum than Le Pen or Wilders. At least they know what is worth defending- and what isn't. The Christian nationalism of Lebanon and Hindu nationalism of Nepal falls into the same category.
DutchMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #5 
She is indeed getting more and more close to Wilders, as others far-right parties proabably will in the future. However, I think the word liberalism is being used too easily here - I consider myself a liberal, but oppose banning religious symbols on the streets precisely because it limits liberty. 
18th_Brumaire

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchMonarchist
She is indeed getting more and more close to Wilders, as others far-right parties proabably will in the future. However, I think the word liberalism is being used too easily here - I consider myself a liberal, but oppose banning religious symbols on the streets precisely because it limits liberty. 


Yeah, agreed.

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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchMonarchist
She is indeed getting more and more close to Wilders, as others far-right parties proabably will in the future. However, I think the word liberalism is being used too easily here - I consider myself a liberal, but oppose banning religious symbols on the streets precisely because it limits liberty. 


Essentially I am pointing the flaws of Wilders and Le Pen as they are both secular, socially and culturally liberal, etc. They are not the sort of nationalists I am more inclined to- i.e. culturally and socially conservative, Christian, essentially an organic understanding of national unity, identity and independence. Le Pen and Wilders are liberals intent on conserving social and personal freedoms, Orban and Kaczynski (among others) are intent on conserving traditional identity and values. Two very different things.

Multiculturalism, as it is enforced on us, subverts the notion that there is a single national culture, identity, laws, etc that apply to everyone and must be accepted by everyone.

This explains what national conservatism is:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oFXdiS25N78C&pg=PA78&dq=national+conservative&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yvZXT6SJHabB0QW_9-X0Aw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=hdz%20national%20conservative&f=false

They more or less explain here that parties like Fidesz, Law and Justice, TS-LKD, Fatherland and Freedom (now part of the National Alliance), as "national conservative" parties have more in common with the sort of conservatism that prevailed in the West before the 70s and before neoliberalism. Namely, a focus on religion and national values. And naturally monarchists, Christians and those in general who are considered "reactionary" are more likely to identify with that.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #8 
The skullcap is a religious symbol, and I haven't even troubled to read what le Pen's reasoning is for wanting it banned, because whatever the reasoning might be it is wrong, no such call could ever be justified. The headscarf is a different matter, it is not a religious but a cultural symbol. And what it symbolises is male ownership of women. While I support multiculturalism, and indeed liberal democracy and even political correctness, there are limits to all these. Embracing equality and diversity, both of which I also support, can lead to a clash, the two principles conflicting, and while not as egregious as the burqa, public wearing of which I would like to ban, the headscarf and still more the hijab are objectionable to me.

So that part of le Pen's argument I can go along with, for liberal, secularist reasons not anti-Islamic ones, though a ban would still be excessive and I would oppose any such proposal here. Orthodox Jewish women incidentally also cover their hair outside of the home. The reason no one complains about this is that they do not make a show of it, they wear wigs. This would work for men also, but the skullcap is the custom and since it is required of men not women and there is no element of oppression I no more object to it than I do to someone wearing a cross around their neck. Which is sometimes objected to, by people who think multiculturalism, equality and diversity are concepts that apply to every culture but their own. That is not where I am coming from at all, I celebrate my own culture while acknowledging its defects, and respect other cultures without being blind to theirs.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #9 
The question of fairness, for instance, always comes into play here. And recent events have also opened up debate on free speech and its limits. Le Pen may very well be fighting, though not unreasonably, to protect her nation's identity and interests but she's doing it from entirely flawed assumptions. But she, like Wilders, is only defending the very things that led to this mess to begin with. The different brands of "nationalism" here may only agree on some things, but not on others. No way forward there. French patriots who reject any form of Jacobinism (which of course includes monarchists), will thus know clearly who are not going to be their allies.
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