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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #1 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/18/AR2010121803829.html

Honestly, WHO are these people moaning over how no matter how wealthy the Middletons are, they're still commoners? That's a good thing. Teaches humility to the wealthy, teaches them money isn't everything.

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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #2 
Indeed.  I cannot understand the mindset of someone who believes that it's preferable for snobbery to be all about money.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #3 
Snobbery should be about 'old money'!

Really, say three hundred years old or so.
10 generations of being able to 'hold onto the wealth' is worth favourable notice!


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #4 
The article is full of ignorant, careless misunderstandings. "Centuries of royal inbreeding"? The Prince of Wales was only very distantly related to the late Diana, Princess of Wales; many married couples will be just as near kin, or nearer, without having the slightest idea of it. The Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh's closest relationship is second cousins once removed, hardly incest. George VI and the late Queen Elizabeth were most closely related through mutual descent from Henry VII! George V and Queen Mary were also second cousins once removed, and Edward VII and Queen Alexandra fourth cousins. You have to go all the way back to Queen Victoria and the Prince Consort to get a first cousin marriage. And then all the way back to George I, Queen Victoria's great-great-great-grandfather, to get another. The generations between married very distant relatives indeed.

Both Diana, Princess of Wales and the Queen Mother had an abundant share of non-aristocratic lineage, particularly the latter, who had some very humble recent ancestors. Queen Mary had a grandmother from the Hungarian nobility, and Queen Alexandra a great-grandmother from the Prussian, giving more exotic infusions of non-royal blood. As everyone knows, the crown of these islands descended to the present line through Sophia, Electress of Hanover. She died in 1714, missing out on wearing the crown herself by weeks. In nearly three hundred years, with all this royal inbreeding the Queen must be descended from her over and over, right? Right, a whole nine times. Quick, someone call the genetic police.

Strictly speaking the Queen Mother and Diana, Princess of Wales were both commoners. There is royalty, there are peers and then there are the rest of us. Neither was a peer. However they would normally be spoken of as nobility, which is reasonable. Although I suppose most people are impressed by noble lineage and more people by royal blood, inherited class is not a huge factor in present-day Britain. The present Prime Minister is of a monied and somewhat aristocratic background, but the preceding three Conservative Prime Ministers were respectively the son of a circus performer, the daughter of a grocer and the son of a carpenter. Superficially well-written, the article is superficial in every other respect too, and appallingly ill-researched.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #5 
Just to deal with those generations between:

George II and Caroline of Ansbach, another pair of second cousins once removed, so more closely related than I'd assumed. Though still not very.

Frederick Lewis, Prince of Wales and Augusta of Saxe-Gotha, third cousins once removed, which is distant enough for most people.

George III and Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, third cousins. Getting nearer... but hardly close.

Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn and Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld, third cousins once removed again. Heading back in the right direction, what a relief!

Some royal families have been rather closely inbred, though there weren't invariably ill effects from it, only now and then. By any reasonable standard Britain's royal family is not. To put the Queen's nine descents from Sophia, Electress of Hanover in perspective, in the line of succession the Electress is Her Majesty's 8x great-grandmother. In that generation there are in theory 1,024 individual ancestors, and reducing this to 1,016 is hardly a great concern. Of course not all the descents are in the same generation, further diluting the effect.

I might as well finish off by listing those descents. Edward VII was descended once from the Electress, what an atrociously inbred fellow. That was through his mother, obviously. Queen Alexandra was descended three times, once through George II's daughter Louise, Queen of Denmark and Norway, and twice from her sister Mary, Landgravine of Hesse-Cassel. Disappointingly, while looking again at Queen Alexandra's ancestry I have noticed that I was wrong about her nearest relationship with her husband Edward VII, they were another pair of third cousins once removed as well as being fourth cousins. Damn, they are all inbred after all.

Anyway, that made George V a near-Ptolemaic four times descendant of Sophia, his 6x great-grandmother (256 ancestors). He compounded these incestuous descents by marrying a woman descended an awesome five times altogether. From her 5x great-grandmother in the most direct line, 128 ancestors in that generation, which would be reduced to a paltry 124 if all the lines were the same length. Which they weren't. Her descents were once through George III, once through the aforementioned Mary, Landgravine of Hesse-Cassel, once through her sister Anne, Princess of Orange, and once each from George I's only daughter Sophia Dorothea, Queen in Prussia, and his sister Sophia Charlotte, ditto.

So that is how George VI acquired his nine descents from the Electress, passed on to his daughter without addition. The Duke of Edinburgh has I suspect rather more descents though still not a huge number, haven't worked it out yet. Perhaps another day. Diana, Princess of Wales was of course no more descended from the Electress than Kate Middleton is, though she was in fact descended from her brother Karl I Ludwig, Elector Palatine. Incest alert? Not hardly, he died in 1680.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #6 
Now, how are you going to keep a pure line with all that out-breeding???? 
No horseman, cattleman, nor dog fancier would accept a specimen with so little of the pure-breed blood-line......

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #7 
As you say. Done the Duke of Edinburgh thing, 13, so as suspected more than the Queen but not a lot more:

His paternal grandfather George I of the Hellenes was a brother of Queen Alexandra so naturally had the same descents from the Electress Sophia, two from George II's daughter Mary, Landgravine of Hesse-Cassel and one from her sister Louise, Queen of Denmark and Norway.

His paternal grandmother Olga Constantinovna, Queen of the Hellenes had seven descents, three apiece from George I's sister Sophia Charlotte and his daughter Sophia Dorothea, successively Queens in Prussia, and one from George II's daughter Anne, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange. Grand Duke Constantine Nicolaievich, Olga's father, was by the way a very interesting figure who worked closely with his brother the Emperor Alexander II in the emancipation of the serfs, in fact it was more or less his project.

The Duke's maternal grandfather Prince Louis of Battenberg, who became 1st Marquess of Milford Haven as Louis Mountbatten, was not a descendant. Even with his official ancestry, which made him half royal. His actual, biological ancestry made him only one quarter. Which leaves only his maternal grandmother, Princess Victoria of Hesse and by Rhine. She was a three times descendant, once from her grandmother Queen Victoria and once each from the aforementioned Sophia Charlotte and Sophia Dorothea.

That gives the Prince of Wales a total of 22 descents. If that seems a lot, remember that in the line of succession these reduce 2,048 to 2,027. They don't seem so many then. Counting in the Elector the reduction is to 2,006, which still doesn't seem exactly worrying. As the descents are in several different generations the reduction would actually be greater, usually*, or lesser than that, depending. But even with the Prince's other duplicated ancestries he is not by any sensible standard inbred, nor is any other member of the British royal family.

Anyway, for example the King of Norway really seriously is. His parents were first cousins, so were his paternal grandparents, and his maternal grandparents first cousins once removed, as well as his maternal grandmother being his paternal grandfather's sister, and first cousin of his paternal grandmother. Finally his paternal grandfather was first cousin once removed of his maternal grandfather. That is a really tangled web of close relationships, and severely cuts down both the number of his individual ancestors and the diversity of the genetic recombinations that formed him. Is he a drooling, deformed dwarf? Not a bit of it, he is a perfectly normal-seeming individual, remarkable only in that he is a King. Even when true, the royal inbreeding slur is overplayed.

*A point to which I paid insufficient attention in my previous posts, but the general thrust of them is still correct. Although the actual reduction would be larger than indicated, it still would not be significant.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #8 
Some Australian school children have apparently found some noble ancestors of the Duchess of Cambridge...and not very distant ancestors either...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249023/Kate-Middleton-New-study-reveals-Duchesss-links-earls-countesses-Prime-Minister.html

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #9 
As far as i can make out these are not ancestors of the Duchess, but distant connections by marriage.
Vasaborg

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Reply with quote  #10 
Sarah, Duchess of York is related to the royal family through descent from King James I of England,and from King Charles II. David Cameron British P.M. is descended from King William IV and Boris Johnson is descended from King George II.
Tolgron

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Reply with quote  #11 
I imagined if you looked back far enough, most people in Britain can claim relation to various royals and nobles throughout history, even if only by marriage or very distantly. Just as Ireland is lousy with people who are descended from the old Irish kings. Social mobility was very fluid shortly after the rise of the middle-class and the fading of feudalism in Early Modern England, and illegitimate children or junior branches of families fading from the aristocracy were common.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #12 
King Edward IV apparently had several maitresses before he set eyes upon Mistress Woodville Gray. Among them was young Elizabeth Waite Lucy. Lord Premier Thomas More believed that she was a callow young girl who was carried away by the attention that Edward IV showed  her and innocently thought he meant to marry her, while 17th century historian George Buck thought Edward "......loved her well....for she was a wanton wench and......ready to yield herself to the King and his pleasures.......". Be that as it may, she evidently bore two natural children for Edward, a son and a daughter, who bore the surname Plantagenet, and whose descendants may be traced on Genealogics.org. The son was Arthur, and the daughter is referred to as Margaret on Genealogics, but as Elizabeth on Wikipedia. The descendants of Edward IV's children with Elizabeth Waite Lucy, as listed on Genealogics, appear to be more numerous that his descendants with his several younger daughters with Queen Elizabeth (Woodville Gray) (his eldest daughter with Queen Elizabeth (Woodville Gray) was Elizabeth of York, who became the Queen of King Henry VII, and united the houses of York and Tudor, and from whom the British royal family is descended).

However, both the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge (and thus the royal family) also have a traceable descent from Margaret/Elizabeth Plantagenet, the natural daughter of Edward IV and Elizabeth Waite Lucy. 
Here is her lineage to William, Duke of Cambridge (as set forth on Genealogics.org):

Edward IV & Elizabeth Waite Lucy, parents of:
Margaret (Plantagenet) (born circa 1462) mother of:
Anne (Lumley) mother of:
Anne (Ogle) mother of:
Sir Robert Delaval (1542-1607) father of:
Ralph Delaval (1577-1625) father of:
Mary (Delaval) (born after 1599) mother of:
Anne (Bowes) (buried 1701) mother of:
Elizabeth (Blakistan) (buried 1736) mother of:
George Bowes (1701-1760) father of:
Mary (Bowes) (1749-1800) mother of:
John Lyon,9th Earl of Strathmore (1737-1776) father of:
Thomas Lyon-Bowes, 11th Earl (1773-1846) father of:
Thomas Lyon-Bowes, Lord Glamis (1801-1834) father of:
Claude Bowes-Lyon, 13th Earl (1824-1904) father of:
Claude Bowes-Lyon, 14th Earl of Strathmore & Kinghorne (1855-1944) father of:
Queen Elizabeth (Bowes-Lyon) the Queen Mother(1900-2002) mother of:
Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain, mother of:
Charles, Prince of Wales, father of:
William, Duke of Cambridge

Here's Margaret Plantagenet's lineage to Kate (Middleton), Duchess of Cambridge:

King Edward IV & Elizabeth Waite Lucy, parents of:
Margaret (Plantagenet) (born circa 1462) mother of:
Sybil (Lumley) mother of:
William Hilton,9th Lord Hilton (1488-circa 1526) father of:
Anne (Hilton) (b. circa 1513) mother of:
John Hedworth (buried 1600) father of:
Anne (Hedworth) mother of:
John Conyers, 1st Baronet (circa 1587-1664) father of:
John Conyers (circa 1622-buried 1687) father of:
John Conyers (died before 1728) father of:
Ralph Conyers, 5th Baronet (circa 1697-1767) father of:
Thomas Conyers, 9th Baronet (circa 1731-1810) father of:
Jane (Conyers) (circa 1756-1813) mother of:
Jane (Hardy) (born 1795) mother of:
Anthony Liddle (born circa 1817) father of:
Jane (Liddle) (circa 1839-1881) mother of:
John Harrison (1874-1956) father of:
Thomas Harrison (b. 1904) father of:
Dorothy (Harrison) (1935-2006) mother of:
Carole E. (Goldsmith) (born 1955) mother of:
Kate (Middleton), Duchess of Cambridge


Another lineage from Margaret Plantagenet (traceable on Genealogics) leads to the 7th or 12th Earl of Airlie (1893-1968), who was the father of Honorable Sir Angus Ogilvy (1928-2004), who was the husband of Princess Alexandra of Great Britain.







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Admiral_Horthy

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Reply with quote  #13 
"I'm not against the middle class as such, but I do query whether she has the background and breeding to be queen one day," wrote James Whitaker, a guru of royal gossip.

Unlike Diana, Fergie and Harry's trashy pick the Duchess has proven her worthiness as future Queen Consort. William married well.
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