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MatthewJTaylor

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I assume you've all seen this by now:
https://royalcentral.co.uk/europe/italian-pretender-announces-the-return-of-the-monarchy-in-italy-133414/

I have a few questions:
1) Who is this heir?
2) Where does he lie in the succession dispute?
3) Is he the legitimate heir to Italy?
4) What does this announcement mean?
5) Will the old flags fly again?

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Peter

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1) The article explains that
2) He is heir after his father to the senior-line claim
3) In one view, he is next heir after his father as said; in another, his line is excluded and the junior-line claim is the only valid one
4) Very little
5) No
MatthewJTaylor

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
1) The article explains that
2) He is heir after his father to the senior-line claim
3) In one view, he is next heir after his father as said; in another, his line is excluded and the junior-line claim is the only valid one
4) Very little
5) No

Thanks

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MatthewJTaylor

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I think I lean towards the Aosta claim being superior but am not confident of such. Could anyone here provide me with arguement for/against each side?

How likely are the lines to resolve (I.e. no Male heirs in the senior line)?

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Peter

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I have no doubt that the Aosta (junior line) claim is superior. I don't believe the senior-line claim has anything at all going for it, apart from sentiment. Emanuele Filiberto is his father's only child, his wife is 50 and the younger of their two children, both daughters, was born 13 years ago. So it seems reasonable to assume that there will be no further children and the claim, such as it is, will expire with Emanuele Filiberto himself, leaving the Aostas as uncontested heirs.
MatthewJTaylor

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I have no doubt that the Aosta (junior line) claim is superior. I don't believe the senior-line claim has anything at all going for it, apart from sentiment. Emanuele Filiberto is his father's only child, his wife is 50 and the younger of their two children, both daughters, was born 13 years ago. So it seems reasonable to assume that there will be no further children and the claim, such as it is, will expire with Emanuele Filiberto himself, leaving the Aostas as uncontested heirs.

So hopefully within my lifetime I'll see italian royalism United in a similar way to how the Bourbons and Orleans were united after Henri de Chambord?
Hopefully no "legitimists" will emerge manipulating the laws simply to support an alternative candidate, like Louis d'Alphonse's supporters do!

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azadi

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An important reason for restoration of the Italian monarchy being extremely unlikely to happen is, that the Italian monarchy was replaced with a democratic republic, unlike in Russia and in Iran, where the monarchies were replaced with totalitarian regimes. The Spanish monarchy was restored after a civil war, and the Cambodian monarchy was restored after the worst Communist regime, which has ever existed, was overthrown. Italy has never been ruled by a dictatorship after the abolition of the Italian monarchy.
But I would like the Savoia monarchy of Italy to be restored. I like the Savoia monarchy, unlike some members of the forum, who are opposed to the Risorgimento (the unification of Italy), because a lot of Italian monarchs were deposed during the Risorgimento and because the Kingdom of Italy annexed the Papal States. But the Savoias were a native Italian royal dynasty, unlike the Bourbons and Habsburgs, who ruled the other Italian states, and the dissolution of the Papal States has been a blessing in disguise to the Catholic Church, because the oppressive papal regime in Rome damaged the reputation of the papacy. The present-day Vatican City only comprise the Vatican, St. Peter's Basilica and St. Peter's Square. The Vatican City ensures the Pope being independent of secular governments without a large population being subject to the secular rule of the Pope.
I don't care about which descendant of the Savoia dynasty is elected King of Italy, if the Italian monarchy is restored, because I don't support strict legitimism. I want female succession to the throne to be introduced, if the Italian monarchy is restored.

Despite my support of the Risorgimento, I am of the opinion, that the Kingdom of Two Sicilies ought to have remained independent, because of the large cultural differences between South Italy and North Italy. The best option for Italy would have been dividing Italy into a Kingdom of North Italy ruled by the Savoias and a Kingdom of South Italy ruled by the Neapolitan Bourbons.
Naples, the capital of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies, is widely maligned because of the Camorra (the Neapolitan mafia). Roberto Saviano, a Neapolitan writer, who has written Gomorrah, a book about the Camorra, has damaged the reputation of Naples immensely. The TV series Gomorrah is based on Roberto Saviano's book. The TV series Gomorrah takes place in Scampia, a suburb of Naples, which is a stronghold of the Camorra. Scampia is very poor and is full of decaying concrete blocks. But there is far more to Naples than Scampia. The old city of Naples is very beautiful, and poor people still live in the old city of Naples, unlike in the old cities of many other large European cities. I don't blame Roberto Saviano for writing about the Camorra. The crimes of the Camorra ought to be exposed. But Naples don't deserve to be associated with the Camorra and the TV series Gomorrah. Monarchists ought to like Naples, because of its impressive royal history and because it was a stronghold of Italian monarchism during the 1946 referendum. In addition, Scampia is changing for the better: 
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/may/17/goodbye-to-gomorrah-the-end-of-italys-most-notorious-housing-estate
Murtagon

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A "pretender" announcing a return to the throne is nothing new, really. Karl Wilhelm Naundorf did the same in the 1830s. Nothing happened.

I wonder if a peaceful reconciliation between the two branches of the House of Savoy would be possible - through marriage, that is. Is the age difference between Princess Vittoria and Prince Umberto too big? The former is almost 16, the latter is 10. Could work, I suppose.
Peter

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Luisa is 13, so that would be the same as the age difference between Luisa's parents. But I certainly wouldn't expect such a thing to happen. To Azadi, while I agree about the Papal States, they had to go whatever happened for the sake of the Church as well as their inhabitants, I do regret that the other monarchies couldn't have remained in being in the same sort of way as the German regional monarchies did. But I certainly regard the unified kingdom as a legitimate monarchy, would wish its restoration and bear the ancient House of Savoy no ill will for the unification. North Italy and South Italy? Just Italy, reflecting the old kingdom of Holy Roman Empire days, and the Two Sicilies is the way I would go. Of course, I no more expect a restoration in any form than I do a reconciling marriage between the Savoy branches. Though it did happen in Georgia ...
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Luisa is 13, so that would be the same as the age difference between Luisa's parents. But I certainly wouldn't expect such a thing to happen. To Azadi, while I agree about the Papal States, they had to go whatever happened for the sake of the Church as well as their inhabitants, I do regret that the other monarchies couldn't have remained in being in the same sort of way as the German regional monarchies did. But I certainly regard the unified kingdom as a legitimate monarchy, would wish its restoration and bear the ancient House of Savoy no ill will for the unification. North Italy and South Italy? Just Italy, reflecting the old kingdom of Holy Roman Empire days, and the Two Sicilies is the way I would go. Of course, I no more expect a restoration in any form than I do a reconciling marriage between the Savoy branches. Though it did happen in Georgia ...

South Italy and North Italy may as well be different countries. 
The Neapolitans and the Sicilians actually resemble the Kurds a lot. Kurdish mafias actually exist, and corruption is widespread in Kurdistan. The traditional family remains strong in Kurdistan and in South Italy. The Mediterranean countries have always had close links to the Middle East.
The North Italians actually resemble Germans a lot, especially Austrians and southern Germans. Corruption and organized crime are far less widespread in North Italy than in South Italy, and North Italian society is far more well-ordered than South Italian society, and North Italy is far more affluent than South Italy. Milan is quite similar to Vienna, Munich and Stuttgart. But the traditional family is stronger in North Italy than in Germany.
azadi

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I don't support partitioning Italy, despite the large differences between North Italy and South Italy. But Italy ought to become a federation, like Germany is.  
DC

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I recognise Emanuele Filiberto as heir after his father but I am disappointed that this whole business was just to promote the Netflix show The Crown, not that I'm surprised as he is rather 'showbiz'. I'm happy to accept the Savoy-Aosta as the legitimate heirs when the last male of the senior line dies, but I can't accept them now because to me The Duke of Aosta is effectively a usurper and I think the basis for their claim is weak. 

From the death of King Umberto until 2006 (conveniently shortly after the arrest of the Prince of Naples) there was no dispute. I can understand The Duke of Aosta's intentions were no doubt honourable in wanting to protect the reputation of the House of Savoy but I still think it was an illegitimate move.

Yes King Umberto said to his son if he marries unequally the Duke of Aosta would become his dynastic heir. But I have seen no evidence that the King actually followed through on what effectively amounted to a threat. Indeed King Umberto created his grandson Prince of Venice and he had the treatment His Royal Highness and genealogical publications during the Kings lifetime, including the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels (successor to the Almanach de Gotha) regarded Emanuele Filiberto as a dynast. Why did King Umberto not correct this perception if he did not regard his grandson as a dynast, why would he happily let everyone assume his grandson was the future heir if it was not the case. 

But I'm very happy the Duke of Apulia has married a Princess and will happily accept the Savoy-Aosta in the future but think they should wait and withdraw their claim, and I certainly would not like the senior line to try tamper with the salic succession law. So a marriage between a daughter of Emanuele Filiberto and Prince Umberto of Savoy-Aosta would be interesting from a genealogical point of view but unnecessary from a dynastic point of view as women have no succession rights. 
 
  

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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC
I recognise Emanuele Filiberto as heir after his father but I am disappointed that this whole business was just to promote the Netflix show The Crown, not that I'm surprised as he is rather 'showbiz'. I'm happy to accept the Savoy-Aosta as the legitimate heirs when the last male of the senior line dies, but I can't accept them now because to me The Duke of Aosta is effectively a usurper and I think the basis for their claim is weak. 

From the death of King Umberto until 2006 (conveniently shortly after the arrest of the Prince of Naples) there was no dispute. I can understand The Duke of Aosta's intentions were no doubt honourable in wanting to protect the reputation of the House of Savoy but I still think it was an illegitimate move.

Yes King Umberto said to his son if he marries unequally the Duke of Aosta would become his dynastic heir. But I have seen no evidence that the King actually followed through on what effectively amounted to a threat. Indeed King Umberto created his grandson Prince of Venice and he had the treatment His Royal Highness and genealogical publications during the Kings lifetime, including the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels (successor to the Almanach de Gotha) regarded Emanuele Filiberto as a dynast. Why did King Umberto not correct this perception if he did not regard his grandson as a dynast, why would he happily let everyone assume his grandson was the future heir if it was not the case. 

But I'm very happy the Duke of Apulia has married a Princess and will happily accept the Savoy-Aosta in the future but think they should wait and withdraw their claim, and I certainly would not like the senior line to try tamper with the salic succession law. So a marriage between a daughter of Emanuele Filiberto and Prince Umberto of Savoy-Aosta would be interesting from a genealogical point of view but unnecessary from a dynastic point of view as women have no succession rights. 
 
  

The House of Savoy ought to introduce female succession to the throne, because all current European monarchies have introduced equal primogeniture, except Spain and Monaco, which use male-preference primogeniture, and Liechtenstein, which uses agnatic primogeniture. King Mihai of Romania introduced female succession to the Romanian throne in 2007. I personally prefer male-preference primogeniture, but most European monarchists prefer equal primogeniture.  
DC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

The House of Savoy ought to introduce female succession to the throne, because all current European monarchies have introduced equal primogeniture, except Spain and Monaco, which use male-preference primogeniture, and Liechtenstein, which uses agnatic primogeniture. King Mihai of Romania introduced female succession to the Romanian throne in 2007. I personally prefer male-preference primogeniture, but most European monarchists prefer equal primogeniture.  




I don’t see any need for them to as they are non reigning, if the monarchy was restored I’m sure the succession law would change. If the Savoy’s were in danger of running out of males my first preference would be to reintegrate the morganatic Villafranca-Soissons line giving the males of that branch dynastic rights. I much prefer to see a thousand years of tradition maintained and keep the succession in the House of Savoy.

You mentioned Romania and look at the mess they are in now, with the claim looking like it’s going to die out anyway as the the two granddaughters left in the line of succession don’t appear to have any interest. With hindsight it might of been better to effectively let the claim die a dignified death with King Michael (in reality though still exist but effectively lay dormant having reverted to the Princely House of Hohenzollern)

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azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC


I don’t see any need for them to as they are non reigning, if the monarchy was restored I’m sure the succession law would change. If the Savoy’s were in danger of running out of males my first preference would be to reintegrate the morganatic Villafranca-Soissons line giving the males of that branch dynastic rights. I much prefer to see a thousand years of tradition maintained and keep the succession in the House of Savoy.

King Mihai of Romania introduced female succession to the Romanian throne, despite the Romanian royal dynasty being non-reigning. Reza Pahlavi wants to introduce female succession to the Iranian throne. Restoring the Italian monarchy without introducing female succession to the throne will be unacceptable to supporters of gender equality in Italy, because a woman can be elected President of the Italian Republic. 
I support female succession to the throne, because I want a king to be succeeded by his own child. If the king has no sons, his daughter ought to inherit the throne.

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