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Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #76 
Yes, certainly, government instruction to make Ulstermen feel more Irish is likely to increase their attachment to Britain. This must be the three dimensional chess I have heard so much about. Perhaps Ulster could become part of Ireland, to really break the Nationalist hold.

Paisley and the DUP are in no way comparable to Sinn Fein and Adams. The latter are a terrorist front group and a leading member thereof, the former just sectarian, at times at least.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Yes, certainly, government instruction to make Ulstermen feel more Irish is likely to increase their attachment to Britain. This must be the three dimensional chess I have heard so much about. Perhaps Ulster could become part of Ireland, to really break the Nationalist hold.

Paisley and the DUP are in no way comparable to Sinn Fein and Adams. The latter are terrorist front group and a leading member thereof, the former just sectarian, at times at least.

I support Catholic unionism, because I'm a monarchist, who considers the Windsors the legitimate royal dynasty of Ireland. A lot of Ulster Catholics are unionists. Irish nationalists have always wanted Catholics and Protestants to unite under the common name of Irishman, while the DUP hates Irish Catholics. Irish nationalism is progressive and tolerant, while the DUP is sectarian and bigoted. That's why I, despite supporting continued Windsor rule in Ireland, prefer Sinn Fein to the DUP. But the Alliance Party is the best option for Ulster.
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #78 
Reading this thread is giving me a headache.  I may need to lie down.

When one argues for against something, it would be nice if one addressed the specific argument one is disputing rather than side stepping and introducing more wild declarations that do not have bearing on the original argument.  

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #79 
According to a new opinion poll, 51 % of the Ulstermen will vote in favour of Irish unification in a border poll. A customs border in the Irish Sea or at least regulatory checks in the Irish Sea is the only way to keep Ulster in the UK. 
https://www.thejournal.ie/lord-ashcroft-irish-unification-poll-4804372-Sep2019/

azadi

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Reply with quote  #80 
Protestant sectarianism has always been the main cause of troubles in Ireland. In 1914, sectarian Ulster Protestants led by Edward Carson prevented all-Ireland home rule, because they refused to be ruled by an Irish home rule parliament in Dublin. If all-Ireland home rule had been achieved in 1914, all of Ireland may have remained part of the UK. From 1963 to 1969, Terence O'Neill, a moderate Ulster unionist, who opposed sectarianism, was Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. Sectarian Protestants, including Ian Paisley, opposed his reformist policies, and he was forced to resign in 1969. If the reformist policies of Terence O'Neill hadn't been obstructed by sectarian Protestants, the Troubles might have been avoided.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #81 
I agree, except for those times when Nationalists launched terrorist attacks. Then they were the problem. Loyalists contributed to the Troubles, but the main cause was a murderous terrorist campaign by the Nationalists. Ironically, any legitimate grievances the Nationalists had at the beginning of the Troubles would have been sorted out far sooner if they hadn't decided to engage in terrorism.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
I agree, except for those times when Nationalists launched terrorist attacks. Then they were the problem. Loyalists contributed to the Troubles, but the main cause was a murderous terrorist campaign by the Nationalists. Ironically, any legitimate grievances the Nationalists had at the beginning of the Troubles would have been sorted out far sooner if they hadn't decided to engage in terrorism.

I'm not defending the terrorism of the IRA, but the terrorist campaign by the IRA may have received far less support without the intransigence of sectarian Ulster Protestants preventing reforms. Today, history is about to repeat itself in Ulster. DUP refusing to accept a customs border in the Irish Sea will likely lead to Irish unification. To moderate Ulstermen, Sinn Fein appears to be more reasonable than the DUP, because Sinn Fein supports the Irish backstop. If Ulster becomes part of the Republic of Ireland, it will be the fault of DUP, the party, which is most staunchly opposed to Irish unification. The fate of Ulster will be decided by the moderates of both communities, not by sectarian Protestants. Before the Brexit referendum, the moderates of both communities supported Ulster remaining in the UK, but a hard border in Ireland will likely cause the moderates to support Irish unification. Ulster unionism can't afford to loose the support of moderate Catholics. I personally prefer continued Windsor rule in Ulster, but to me, Ulster unionism isn't worth supporting, if it lacks significant Catholic support. I will never support a sectarian Protestant cause. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #83 
Certainly, sectarian Loyalists contributed to the outbreak of the Troubles, but there was never any justification for the terrorism (I'm not sure there ever is, at least against civilian targets). Loyalists paramilitaries committed their own terrorist acts, of course, but the legitimate grievances of Catholics prior to the outbreak of the Troubles were absolutely no justification for the tactics that the Nationalists used. That should never be lost, nor should the fact that Sinn Fein was a terrorist front group but two decades ago and has never repudiated that past. For someone so keen to bring up past wrongs, you should acknowledge that. There is no common measure between Sinn Fein and the DUP.

The people of Ulster will make the choice they wish to. If they except a customs barrier, then who am to lecture them, even if I don't necessarily believe the polls ( the one mentioned was in the margin of error anyway). You know what I feel about such lecturing. Still, I again point out it isn't Britain, but Ireland and the EU, that demands a hard border, because of the nature of the common and, later, single market. The EU cannot allow free trade between a member and a non-member country.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #84 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Certainly, sectarian Loyalists contributed to the outbreak of the Troubles, but there was never any justification for the terrorism (I'm not sure there ever is, at least against civilian targets). Loyalists paramilitaries committed their own terrorist acts, of course, but the legitimate grievances of Catholics prior to the outbreak of the Troubles were absolutely no justification for the tactics that the Nationalists used. That should never be lost, nor should the fact that Sinn Fein was a terrorist front group but two decades ago and has never repudiated that past. For someone so keen to bring up past wrongs, you should acknowledge that. There is no common measure between Sinn Fein and the DUP.

The people of Ulster will make the choice they wish to. If they except a customs barrier, then who am to lecture them, even if I don't necessarily believe the polls ( the one mentioned was in the margin of error anyway). You know what I feel about such lecturing. Still, I again point out it isn't Britain, but Ireland and the EU, that demands a hard border, because of the nature of the common and, later, single market. The EU cannot allow free trade between a member and a non-member country.

I prefer Sinn Fein to the DUP, because Sinn Fein opposes religious intolerance, while the DUP supports religious intolerance. Irish nationalism has always been non-sectarian. Irish nationalists have always wanted Catholics and Protestants to unite in the common name of Irishman. It's true, that the poll doesn't show a clear majority for Irish unification, but it's a political earthquake, because before the Brexit referendum, a clear majority of the Ulstermen, including a large part of the Ulster Catholics, supported remaining in the UK.
Before I joined this forum, I supported Irish unification, but I changed my mind, because Baron von Servers told me about Catholic unionism. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #85 
Ah yes, religious sectarianism is certainly worse than being a front for terrorists and being hard-left ideologues. I'm sure all those people who take you as a moral arbiter will be pleased to know your position on Ulster Unionism. I have strong doubts about the number of Catholic Unionists though. Do you have proof of this?
azadi

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Reply with quote  #86 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Ah yes, religious sectarianism is certainly worse than being a front for terrorists and being hard-left ideologues. I'm sure all those people who take you as a moral arbiter will be pleased to know your position on Ulster Unionism. I have strong doubts about the number of Catholic Unionists though. Do you have proof of this?

A lot of Ulster Catholics support the Alliance Party, which is a non-sectarian unionist party. And religious sectarianism is unacceptable to me, because I'm a strong supporter of religious tolerance.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #87 
The Alliance Party is neutral on the union. I'm sceptical that a lot of Catholics support it. It is really, as far as I know, a sort of third force. It gets its support mostly from people outside the old ethnic and sectarian divides: immigrants, the irreligious, social liberals. I could well imagine its support is growing, as Ulster becomes somewhat more secular and socially liberal, not to mention ethnically diverse
However, I doubt a lot of practicing Catholics are going to support the Alliance Party. Anyway, as noted, it isn't a unionist party.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #88 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
The Alliance Party is neutral on the union. I'm sceptical that a lot of Catholics support it. It is really, as far as I know, a sort of third force. It gets its support mostly from people outside the old ethnic and sectarian divides: immigrants, the irreligious, social liberals. I could well imagine its support is growing, as Ulster becomes somewhat more secular and socially liberal, not to mention ethnically diverse
However, I doubt a lot of practicing Catholics are going to support the Alliance Party. Anyway, as noted, it isn't a unionist party.

The support of the Alliance Party is actually growing. According to opinion polls, 21 % of the Ulstermen will vote for the Alliance Party, while 29 % will vote for the DUP and 25 % will vote for Sinn Fein. The Alliance Party is the political party in Ulster, which is closest to my opinions on sectarianism and the British union, but I wouldn't necessarily vote for it, if I was a British citizen living in Ulster, because I'm a social democrat, and the Alliance Party is a liberal party.
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