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Peter

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

I support making the Irish language a compulsory subject in school in Northern Ireland.
Anti-British Irish nationalism doesn't make sense today. The peoples of the British Isles have far more in common with each other than with continental Europe. The Republic of Ireland ought to leave the EU and rejoin the Commonwealth.

Yeah, the kids would find that so much more useful than French, or German, or Spanish. Wouldn't they? In contrast with Britain, EU membership has been enormously beneficial for Ireland and I can't envisage them voluntarily giving that up. They could rejoin the Commonwealth and remain in the EU; we are in both, after all. But I don't expect them to rejoin. The one thing I do agree with you on is that anti-British Irish nationalism makes no sense today. I don't actually think that anti-anything nationalism is right, nationalism ought to be identified by what it is for rather than what it is against.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter

Yeah, the kids would find that so much more useful than French, or German, or Spanish. Wouldn't they? In contrast with Britain, EU membership has been enormously beneficial for Ireland and I can't envisage them voluntarily giving that up. They could rejoin the Commonwealth and remain in the EU; we are in both, after all. But I don't expect them to rejoin. The one thing I do agree with you on is that anti-British Irish nationalism makes no sense today. I don't actually think that anti-anything nationalism is right, nationalism ought to be identified by what it is for rather than what it is against.

I agree, that nationalism ought to be identified by what it is for rather than what it is against, but Irish nationalism being anti-British is understandable. The Irish are the Kurds of the British Isles. The Irish Potato Famine is to the Irish, what Saddam's Anfal campaign is to the Kurds. But today, the Republic of Ireland is a fully independent country, and the Good Friday Agreement allows Northern Ireland to leave the UK, if a majority of the population of Northern Ireland votes in favour of it in a referendum. That's why anti-British Irish nationalism doesn't make sense today.
The Good Friday Agreement has made Northern Ireland far more interconnected with the Republic of Ireland. I support a customs border in the Irish Sea, because it will allow Northern Ireland to remain part of the UK, while remaining linked to the Republic of Ireland after Brexit. 
An important difference between Ireland and Kurdistan is, that Ireland is culturally closer to Great Britain than to continental Europe, while Kurdistan is culturally far closer to Iran and Turkey than to the Arab world. I don't hate Arabs, but I want Kurdistan to turn its back on the Arab world, just as Atatürk wanted Turkey to turn its back on the Arab world. I support replacing the Kurdish Arabic script with a Kurdish Latin script.
Vasaborg

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Reply with quote  #18 
Oh yes EU membership has been "enormously beneficial " for Ireland !  many would ask how is mass immigration into a country with a small population  beneficial ? ( the Republic of Ireland)  according to the census of 2016 in some places the majority of the population were born outside of the Republic of  Ireland.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #19 
And do you think a referendum would result in a Leave vote, then? To Azadi, an internal border within the United Kingdom in order to maintain an open border between a part of that kingdom and a foreign nation is a bizarre and entirely unacceptable idea.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
And do you think a referendum would result in a Leave vote, then? To Azari, an internal border within the United Kingdom in order to maintain an open border between a part of that kingdom and a foreign nation is a bizarre and entirely unacceptable idea.

Why? It will be very beneficial to Northern Ireland, and it will preserve the achievements of the Good Friday Agreement. To Irish nationalists, a hard border in Ireland is unacceptable, and Northern Ireland depends on trade with the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland must be treated different from the rest of UK, because it is part of the Irish nation. Cutting all links between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is wrong. The DUP is constantly trying to destroy the Good Friday Agreement, while Sinn Fein, despite its terrorist past, adheres to the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. The Stormont is suspended because the DUP disagrees with Sinn Fein on the status of the Irish language, and the DUP refuses to accept a customs border in the Irish sea, despite it being in the best interests of Northern Ireland. A customs border in the Irish Sea is the best option for Great Britain too, because the EU demands an open Irish border, which means, that the alternatives to a customs border in the Irish sea are Great Britain being shackled to a customs union with the EU or a no-deal Brexit.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #21 
That's not why the Assembly was suspended, and the Nationalists are every bit as intransigent as the Unionists, if not more so. It is in fact they who refuse to return to power-sharing government. The DUP do not oppose the Good Friday Agreement, no one does. Northern Ireland is part of the British nation, unless and until it chooses not to be. And there should be no truck with internal borders within Britain for any cause.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #22 
As someone who has speaks a bit of Gaelic (albeit badly), I have nothing against the use of Irish. I also prefer Roman Catholicism to the Reformed Protestantism usual amongst the Ulster Protestants. Still, it is just silly to ignore the fact the Protestant Ulster majority have lived there for centuries. Why on earth would they not get self-determination as much as anyone?

I will say that I think the Peter Hitchens is correct that the Good Friday Agreement was little more than a surrender to Fenian surrender. Through pressure and infiltration, the IRA had already been brought to its knees. It had declared a unilateral ceasefire. There was no need to reward its totally unnecessary terrorist campaign, as the agreement did. Indeed, this seems doubly so with the benefit of hindsight, as the IRA was always dependent on American support and funding, which could not have continued after 9/11.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #23 
Ireland has benefitted from the EU, mostly because it has been a net receiver from EU funds. I can't remember the figure, but each Irish citizen literally gets the equivalent of thousands of pounds a year from the EU. In Britain, taxpayers pay at least hundreds a year. Still, certain sectors of the Irish economy have been hurt by the EU. I believe its fishing industry has been hurt quite a bit, but not as bad as ours. If you read about the history of the EU common fisheries policy, it really should be a scandal.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
As someone who has speaks a bit of Gaelic (albeit badly), I have nothing against the use of Irish. I also prefer Roman Catholicism to the Reformed Protestantism usual amongst the Ulster Protestants. Still, it is just silly to ignore the fact the Protestant Ulster majority have lived there for centuries. Why on earth would they not get self-determination as much as anyone?

I will say that I think the Peter Hitchens is correct that the Good Friday Agreement was little more than a surrender to Fenian surrender. Through pressure and infiltration, the IRA had already been brought to its knees. It had declared a unilateral ceasefire. There was no need to reward its totally unnecessary terrorist campaign, as the agreement did. Indeed, this seems doubly so with the benefit of hindsight, as the IRA was always dependent on American support and funding, which could not have continued after 9/11.

I don't want to deny self-determination to Ulster Protestants. I don't support Irish unification unless a majority of the population of Northern Ireland votes in favour of it in a referendum. I strongly support the Good Friday Agreement, because it allows Northern Ireland to secede from the UK, if a majority of the population of Northern Ireland votes in favour of it in a referendum and because it grants the inhabitants of Northern Ireland the right to dual citizenship.
According to a recent opinion poll, the non-sectarian Alliance Party will get 21 % of the votes in Northern Ireland in the next British general election, while the DUP will get 29 % of the votes and Sinn Fein will get 25 % of the votes. In the 2017 British general election, the DUP got 36 % of the votes in Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein got 29 % of the votes and the Alliance Party got 7 % of the votes.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
That's not why the Assembly was suspended, and the Nationalists are every bit as intransigent as the Unionists, if not more so. It is in fact they who refuse to return to power-sharing government. The DUP do not oppose the Good Friday Agreement, no one does. Northern Ireland is part of the British nation, unless and until it chooses not to be. And there should be no truck with internal borders within Britain for any cause.

Northern Ireland isn't part of the British nation. Northern Ireland is a part of the Irish nation, which is in a political union with Great Britain. I don't understand, why you are opposed to a customs border in the Irish Sea. A customs border in the Irish Sea doesn't mean, that Northern Ireland ceases to be part of the UK. Northern Ireland will remain subject to the British crown and to the British parliament, if a customs border is established in the Irish Sea. A hard border in Ireland will harm the economy of Northern Ireland immensely, and it will be a grave threat to the Good Friday Agreement. In a worst-case scenario, a hard border in Ireland will lead to a revival of Irish nationalist terrorism in Northern Ireland.
A customs border in the Irish Sea may still be established:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/irish-times-view-on-varadkar-johnson-meeting-treading-carefully-through-chaos-1.4009992

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #26 
You say you aren't opposed to Ulster self-determination, but then you make the Nationalist claims about Ulster really being part of the same nation as the Republic of Ireland. The Ulster Protestants don't see it that way. They see themselves as British and distinct from the South of their island. The Ulster men have been there for centuries. Yes, oppression of the Catholic Irish did occur, but that hardly seems good reason to just ignore the existence of the Protestant Ulstermen. What is the limiting principle here? Should England be give back to Wales?

There is unlikely to be a revival of Nationalist terrorism in the 9/11 world. Not only did Britain actually pretty much beat the IRA, so they had to declare a unilateral ceasefire, but we would have beaten them much sooner if it wasn't for US support and money. After 9/11, it is highly unlikely that support will be forthcoming in the future.

By the way, there is no common measure between the DUP and Sinn Fein. The DUP has sometimes been nastily sectarian, and it has members who once supported terrorism before joining, but it has never supported terrorism itself and has kept a distance between itself and Loyalist paramilitaries. Sinn Fein, on the other hand, was essentially the political arm of the provisional IRA.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
You say you aren't opposed to Ulster self-determination, but then you make the Nationalist claims about Ulster really being part of the same nation as the Republic of Ireland. The Ulster Protestants don't see it that way. They see themselves as British and distinct from the South of their island. The Ulster men have been there for centuries. Yes, oppression of the Catholic Irish did occur, but that hardly seems good reason to just ignore the existence of the Protestant Ulstermen. What is the limiting principle here? Should England be give back to Wales?

There is unlikely to be a revival of Nationalist terrorism in the 9/11 world. Not only did Britain actually pretty much beat the IRA, so they had to declare a unilateral ceasefire, but we would have beaten them much sooner if it wasn't for US support and money. After 9/11, it is highly unlikely that support will be forthcoming in the future.

By the way, there is no common measure between the DUP and Sinn Fein. The DUP has sometimes been nastily sectarian, and it has members who once supported terrorism before joining, but it has never supported terrorism itself and has kept a distance between itself and Loyalist paramilitaries. Sinn Fein, on the other hand, was essentially the political arm of the provisional IRA.

When I say, that I'm not opposed to Ulster self-determination, it means, that I won't support Irish unification without the consent of the majority of the population of Northern Ireland. But Northern Ireland is part of the Irish nation even if Northern Ireland is ruled from London. Until 1800, the Kingdom of Ireland, which shared its monarch with Great Britain, encompassed the entire island of Ireland. I consider Northern Ireland a successor to the Kingdom of Ireland. No British nation exists. Great Britain is a political union consisting of the English and Scottish nations. Great Britain doesn't have a uniform legal system. English law applies to England and Wales, Scottish law applies to Scotland and Irish law applies to Northern Ireland.
I don't support expulsion of Ulster Protestants from Northern Ireland. The civil rights of Ulster Protestants must be upheld in a united Ireland, just as the KRG (the autonomous regional government of South (Iraqi) Kurdistan) upholds the civil rights of the Assyrian, Turkmen and Armenian minorities of Kurdistan.
It's true, that Sinn Fein supported terrorism during the Troubles, but Sinn Fein has renounced terrorism and currently staunchly defends the Good Friday Agreement, while the DUP undermines the Good Friday Agreement by opposing a customs border in the Irish Sea and by opposing greater official recognition of the Irish language in Northern Ireland.  
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #28 
As an Englishman and Brit, I do enjoy having my national identity explained to me. It is true that most Brits identify first with our constituent nations, but most are also self-conscious Brits. A Scot or Ulstermen is my countryman in a way a Frenchman or Finn is not.

I don't know what reason you are offering for thinking Ulstermen are primarily Irish, not British. In my own experience of Protestant Ulstermen they do consider themselves Irish in some sense, but even more British and, above all, Ulstermen. This is no doubt why the DUP opposes the push to encourage a general attachment to Gaelic Ireland that it, like most Ulstermen Protestants, doesn't feel. You seem to be arguing this should be ignored because the land was once Irish (actually many Ulstermen are of Scottish descent, and there has been a close relationship between Western Scotland and Northern Ireland for millenia - long live the Kingdom of Dál Riata?) and because of oppression pf the Irish long past. This doesn't seem to be the best way to approach these issues to me.

By the way, I believe it might be against the rules here to advocate for a part of a monarchy to become a republic or part of a republic.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
As an Englishman and Brit, I do enjoy having my national identity explained to me. It is true that most Brits identify first with our constituent nations, but most are also self-conscious Brits. A Scot or Ulstermen is my countryman in a way a Frenchman or Finn is not.

I don't know what reason you are offering for thinking Ulstermen are primarily Irish, not British. In my own experience of Protestant Ulstermen they do consider themselves Irish in some sense, but even more British and, above all, Ulstermen. This is no doubt why the DUP opposes the push to encourage a general attachment to Gaelic Ireland that it, like most Ulstermen Protestants, doesn't feel. You seem to be arguing this should be ignored because the land was once Irish (actually many Ulstermen are of Scottish descent, and there has been a close relationship between Western Scotland and Northern Ireland for millenia - long live the Kingdom of Dál Riata?) and because of oppression pf the Irish long past. This doesn't seem to be the best way to approach these issues to me.

By the way, I believe it might be against the rules here to advocate for a part of a monarchy to become a republic or part of a republic.

As a Kurd, I sympathize with other oppressed peoples like the Irish, but I'm not opposed to Northern Ireland being part of the UK, because the British state doesn't oppress the Irish people today. The Good Friday agreement grants Catholics and Protestants equal rights in Northern Ireland. But I'm opposed to denying, that Northern Ireland is part of the Irish nation. Unionists and Irish republicans ought to agree on Northern Ireland being part of the Irish nation despite disagreeing on Northern Ireland's political union with Great Britain.
I don't support Southern Ireland being a republic. I would like a Chief of the Name to be elected king of Southern Ireland. 
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #30 
By why should the Ulster Protestants come to see themselves as part of the Irish nation first and foremost? As I said, I do think many have some notion of being Irish, but they are certainly British and Ulstermen first. Why should they change in their self-identity?

If, as I fear, your answer is based on relitigating past oppression and wrongs, without due attention to current circumstances, I think this to be a mistake. As a general rule, it seems likely to cause a great more present problems and injustices than it will solve.
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