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azadi

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bator


i think estonia should be a kingdom of its own, and have back petserimaa and also let the border follow the river south of peipsi järv, but definitely karelia and ingria should be liberated. the present border between finland and russia is very artificial.

Making Saint Petersburg part of Finland makes no sense. It was the capital of the Tsars. I agree, that the Russian annexation of Karelia in 1940 was wrong, but ethnic Russians form the majority of the population of Karelia today. I don't support Karelia rejoining Finland without the consent of the inhabitants of Karelia, but I will accept Karelia becoming part of Finland in this game, because Finland has the strongest historical claim to Karelia.
Estonia remains a republic, because it has no native royal family.
My preferred borders of Russia:
Russia keeps Crimea, but Donetsk and Lugansk remain parts of Ukraine. Crimea was never part of Ukraine before 1954, while Donetsk and Lugansk always have been parts of Ukraine. Transnistria becomes part of Ukraine, because Transnistria was part of Ukraine before 1940. Russia annexes South Ossetia, because most South Ossetians want South Ossetia to join Russia. Russia returns the South Kuril Islands to Japan. Despite being a German citizen, I want Kaliningrad to remain part of Russia, despite having been part of Germany from the Middle Ages to 1945, because the expulsion of the Germans from Kaliningrad was a just punishment for the crimes of Nazi Germany.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #17 
This is a monarchist forum. We tend to believe in, you know, monarchies.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
This is a monarchist forum. We tend to believe in, you know, monarchies.

I'm a monarchist too. I support keeping current monarchies and restoring the monarchy in former monarchies with ancient deposed dynasties, but establishing a monarchy in a country with no native royal dynasty makes no sense to me.
MatthewJTaylor

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

I'm a monarchist too. I support keeping current monarchies and restoring the monarchy in former monarchies with ancient deposed dynasties, but establishing a monarchy in a country with no native royal dynasty makes no sense to me.

All monarchies come from somewhere

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azadi

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewJTaylor

All monarchies come from somewhere

I'm not opposed to usurpers, unlike most members of this forum. I admire Napoleon and Reza Shah Pahlavi. But Estonia is a democratic republic, and while I'm willing to tolerate existing dictatorships, I'm opposed to replacing democracies with dictatorships. Establishing a monarchy in a democratic republic without a deposed royal dynasty makes no sense to me.
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #21 
Seems a pretty lukewarm monarchism to me. I don't say a monarchist needs to believe absolutely every state should be a monarchy, but they surely think most should. As Matthew says, all monarchies have to start somewhere.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
Seems a pretty lukewarm monarchism to me. I don't say a monarchist needs to believe absolutely every state should be a monarchy, but they surely think most should. As Matthew says, all monarchies have to start somewhere.

Claiming, that I'm a lukewarm monarchist, when I strongly support the restoration of the Russian and Iranian monarchies, is unfair. 
I repeat, that I'm not opposed to usurpers. I would like Assad to be crowned King of Syria, I would like Nursultan Nazarbayev, the dictator of Kazakhstan, who is a descendant of Genghis Khan, to be crowned Khan of Kazakhstan, and I would like Putin to be crowned Tsar of Russia, if he is indeed a descendant of Rurik. But I don't want to replace democracies with dictatorships. Estonia is currently a democratic republic. All usurpers have been dictators, who were crowned kings. Napoleon was a dictator, Reza Shah Pahlavi was a dictator, Zog was a dictator and Bokassa was a dictator. Replacing a democratic republic with a monarchy only makes sense, if an ancient deposed dynasty is restored to the throne.
If you want Estonia to become a monarchy, who do you want to become King of Estonia?
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #23 
I have, or at least implied, a reason why you seem a lukewarm monarchist. What you mention hardly is response to that. No one is suggesting democracies be replaced by dictatorships. The question is not whether I can name a monarch for Estonia, but whether it should have one. Setting up a monarchy is always a complex issue, but surely a monarchist thinks that it is usually a good idea. Your position makes little sense, considering monarchies always come from somewhere. Why should ancient monarchies be restored, but one say other countries shouldn't have a monarchy? Sure, again, there will be added problems in the latter (who should be the monarch, a time lag before their legitimacy as monarch sinks in,:etc.), but they hardly seem enough to make a monarchist give up on monarchy in these cases.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #24 
My personal feeling is that if Estonia would like to become a monarchy, more power to it. If, as will undoubtedly be the case, it would prefer to remain a republic, then that is its choice to make. What I don't feel is that I have a right to tell Estonia it should be a monarchy, any more than Estonians have a right to tell Britain it should be a republic. And this of course is a general principle for me, applying even in former monarchies, much as I would rejoice to see restorations. If that makes me a lukewarm monarchist, so be it.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wessexman
I have, or at least implied, a reason why you seem a lukewarm monarchist. What you mention hardly is response to that. No one is suggesting democracies be replaced by dictatorships. The question is not whether I can name a monarch for Estonia, but whether it should have one. Setting up a monarchy is always a complex issue, but surely a monarchist thinks that it is usually a good idea. Your position makes little sense, considering monarchies always come from somewhere. Why should ancient monarchies be restored, but one say other countries shouldn't have a monarchy? Sure, again, there will be added problems in the latter (who should be the monarch, a time lag before their legitimacy as monarch sinks in,:etc.), but they hardly seem enough to make a monarchist give up on monarchy in these cases.

While I prefer figurehead hereditary monarchies to republics, I consider republics a legitimate form of government, unlike most members of this forum. An ancient royal dynasty embodies the history and traditions of the nation, and it can be an unifying national symbol. A monarchy, which is established from scratch, is unable to embody the history and traditions of the nation. That's why I'm opposed to establishing monarchies in countries, which lack traditions of monarchy. I want countries like USA, Switzerland and Iceland, which were founded as republics, to remain republics. But I would like hereditary dictatorships of republics, such as the Assad regime, to evolve into monarchies.
If Estonia shall be a monarchy, the King of Estonia ought to belong to a royal dynasty of a country, which has ruled Estonia in the past. The King of Estonia must be either a Romanov, a Bernadotte or a Glücksburg, because Estonia has been ruled by Russia, Sweden and Denmark.

Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #26 
Peter,

No, I agree it's not our job to tell Estonia what to do. It's more the general claim a nation like Estonia shouldn't have a monarchy that I find puzzling from a monarchist, especially as the stated reason doesn't make much sense to me. As Matthew put it, all monarchies start somewhere. I can understand someone saying a nation like Switzerland doesn't need a monarchy, because it has centuries of tradition without one, but not every country without an ancient dynasty.
bator

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Reply with quote  #27 
yes i would not agree that estonia was founded as a republic. estonia was a duchy from 1219 with members from first the danish, then the swedish and then the russian royal family as dukes of estonia. there are monarchists in estonia and they had a monarchist party suggesting a british prince as king. so we shouldnt just say that estonia should stay a republic. as there are estonians who want a kingdom, we should support that.
azadi

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Reply with quote  #28 
Making Ingria part of Finland is unacceptable, because Saint Petersburg is part of Ingria, and Ingria has never been part of Finland. I will propose the restoration of the borders of the Grand Duchy of Finland for the purpose of this game. 
azadi

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Reply with quote  #29 
When I claim, that Estonia is founded as a republic, I mean, that Estonia never has been a monarchy as an independent state. If a country never has been a monarchy as an independent state, making it a monarchy makes no sense to me.
If Estonia shall be a monarchy, the King of Estonia ought to belong to the royal dynasty of a country, which has ruled the country previously. The King of Estonia must be either a Glücksburg (the royal dynasty of Denmark), a Bernadotte (the royal dynasty of Sweden) or a Romanov (the imperial dynasty of Russia). Which of the countries, which have ruled Estonia previously, do the Estonians prefer?
Wessexman

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Reply with quote  #30 
That it makes no sense to you isn't an argument nor a proper response to the objections raised by me and others.
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