Monarchy Forum
Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Dmitry777

Registered:
Posts: 18
Reply with quote  #1 
Hello!

I write very big and serious letter on the successor of Russian throne. I hope that my clause is pleasant to you. I hope that you will leave this letter at this forum.


I live in Russia in which history there was Russian empire. Therefore the question on the successor of Russian throne very much me interests. I have read many different materials of very serious authors which the question on successors of Russian throne and Russian imperial family too interests. I wish to tell, that there are many different points of view on this theme. Therefore I wish to tell to you about the monarchic organizations existing in Russia. In Russia many the monarchic organizations, thus each of them has the sight at problems of inheritance of Russian throne.

One of these monarchic organizations supports descendants of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich. This is Vladimir Kirillovich with wife Leonida, daughter Maria and grandson George. Only the family of Grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich is considered the unique heir-at-law of Russian imperial family and Russian imperial throne. But there are some very serious monarchic organizations which deny the rights Maria and its son George on Russian imperial throne. I wish to tell about their arguments against Maria Vladimirovna and her son George.

First, their ancestor grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was a member of Russian imperial family and the native brother of Russian emperor Alexander III. Except for family of Tsar Alexander III, grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was most close to Russian imperial throne. But Grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich had very serious disagreements with imperial family. Vladimir Aleksandrovich married German princess who has taken a new name Maria Pavlovna. But there is one small "but". The wife of grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was the Lutheran and has refused to pass in Russian Orthodox Church. This problem has seriously complicated chances Vladimir Aleksandrovich to borrow Russian imperial throne because Russian imperial throne can be borrowed only by prince who is brought up as orthodox Russian, and still also married to orthodox Russian princess. But Maria Pavlovna remained the Lutheran still long time. Only in 1908 she has accepted Orthodoxy. On a twist of fate, serious and terrible illness of the successor of Tsar Nicholas II was the unique reason of transition Maria Pavlovna from a Lutheranism in Orthodoxy. This circumstance gave the certain chance to son of Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Maria Pavlovna Cyril Vladimirovich to borrow Russian imperial throne in case of death of Alexei and scandalous and morganatic marriage of the brother of Tsar Nicholas II.

Secondly, Cyril Vladimirovich has made the roughest mistake when he married the cousin. Under laws of Russian Orthodox Church cousins cannot marry, because such marriages are very close to incest. Sovereign Nicholas II was categorically against such marriage. When this marriage became the come to pass fact, Sovereign Nicholas II has told, that cannot recognize this marriage and deprives their posterity of the right to inheritance of Russian imperial throne.

Thirdly, Cyril Vladimirovich has betraid Russian imperial family and Russian monarchy. In 1917 this grand duke had efficient Russian divisions of guards and had magnificent chances to liquidate the Petersburg disorders and revolts, but he has come over to the party of revolution. Thus, Russian imperial family has got the Egalite.

Fourthly, the son of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich Vladimir married the Georgian woman who had very doubtful reputation and not less doubtful origin. Its wife worked in a night club as the dancer. Her first husband was the rich American businessman who was very close to those financial circles which have supported Russian revolution and overthrow of an imperial monarchy. Her native sister was the wife of Stalinist executioner Beria. This person bears the responsibility for sufferings of tens millions Russian people in the Siberian state camps. Vladimir Kirillovich secretly married the Georgian woman in one orthodox (Serbian, instead of Russian!) churches in Switzerland. But their marriage cannot be equal. Thus, Vladimir Kirillovich and his father had no rights to Russian imperial throne.

Fifthly, their daughter Maria Vladimirovna occurs from a left-handed marriage and has no rights to Russian imperial throne.

Sixthly, Maria is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house owing to its marriage for Prussian prince. Maria should carry surname Hohenzollern. In this situation Maria cannot be the head of the Russian imperial house.

Seventhly, son of Maria and her Prussian husband is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house. His present name is George Hohenzollern. Therefore George Hohenzollern cannot be a member of the Russian imperial house.

In-eighth, in case of employment of Russian imperial throne by George Hohenzollern the Prussian royal family and the German imperial house will start to reign in Russia.

In-ninth, the Russian imperial house has almost stopped the existence because almost all descendants of Russian tsars and grand dukes are married left-handed marriages and have lost the rights to Russian imperial throne.

In-tenth, it is senseless to search for the successor of Russian imperial throne among descendants of Russian great princesses who have married the European princes and have taken a new name (and can be, still also send from Orthodoxy to other belief). Such descendants much also should be not less than 100.

But there are still also some other monarchic organizations.

It is the All-Russia Monarchic Center which considers, that the German princes (Oldenburg dukes) are heir-at-laws of Russian imperial family and Russian imperial throne.


This Russian Imperial Home guard which considers, that only the God knows, who the successor of Russian throne, that only the God will give Tsar for Russian people, that only the God knows, when Russia will restore the monarchy. These monarchists are opponents of transfer of Russian imperial throne to any European sovereign family, and still also consider legitimist ideas senseless and nothing meaning. They consider that if to follow each letter of legitimist laws, Russia can receive tsar from any European aristocrats who can not know Russia, Russian people, Russian orthodox belief, Russian culture, Russian outlook and etc.

I think, you consider Maria and her son as heir-at-laws of Russian imperial throne because you know only about them. But I have small remarks in this occasion. I think, the majority of participants of Royal Forums lives not in Russia, therefore, probably, many of them do not know, how problems of inheritance of Russian imperial throne are considered in Russia. Thus much serious authors do not consider Maria and her son as successors of Russian imperial family and successors of Russian imperial throne. I wish to tell about very serious arguments against Maria and her son George as successors of Russian imperial throne.

First, I have read through many serious materials of very serious authors which very seriously were interested in problems of inheritance of Russian imperial throne. Alas, all authors of these materials always are firm opponents of a nominee of Maria and her son, as successors of Russian imperial throne.

Secondly, I saw a photocopy of the resolution of Sovereign Nikolas II in which he is written, that Sovereign cannot recognize marriage of Cyril Vladimirovich and his cousin because marriage between the cousin brother and the sister is an incest under laws of Russian Orthodox Church. The posterity from its marriage has been deprived the right to Russian imperial title, it received only a title of princes and the annual maintenance. Therefore their son cannot be the successor of Russian imperial throne because has been deprived such rights at will of Sovereign Emperor.

Thirdly, it is necessary to consider Vladimir Kirillovich's marriage on its Georgian woman. I wish to tell, that Leonida occurs from an ancient nobiliary sort which is a collateral line of a dynasty of the Georgian tsars. I wish to tell, that at connection of Georgia to Russia in 1783 the Georgian population of all estates automatically became the citizen of the Russian sovereigns. Therefore descendants of the Georgian tsars became citizens of the Russian sovereigns. Therefore marriages between members of Russian imperial family and descendants of the Georgian tsars cannot be equal. I wish to tell about marriage of great princess of imperial blood and the representative of this most Georgian sort. This marriage has been recognized not equal, therefore great princess has refused the rights to Russian imperial throne. After a while the escaped members of Russian imperial family have appeared in emigration after revolution and overthrows of a monarchy. After a while Grand duke Cyril has proclaimed itself emperor, and this grand duke HAS been deprived SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN. Its son Vladimir was only the son of grand duke who HAS been deprived SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN. What rights to a nonexistent throne Vladimir who was only the son of grand duke Cyril, DEPRIVED SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN has? This Vladimir has written a paper in which recognizes descendants of the Georgian tsars equal to NONEXISTENT Russian imperial family. After that Vladimir married the Georgian woman. Therefore daughter of Vladimir and Leonida has no rights to a nonexistent Russian imperial throne.

Therefore I cannot consider Maria and her son as heir-at-laws of Russian imperial throne.
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #2 
That is a very thorough essay, but the obvious question is, who do you support as claimant to the Russian throne?

As I have written elsewhere, if monarchy is ever restored in Russia it will be a new monarchy with new laws and a new constitution, like in Spain in 1975.  I personally would hope that it would be as connected to the old monarchy as possible, but it will not be possible to apply the old laws rigidly.







Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #3 

Royalcello how can you say "this is thorough essay"about Grand Duchess Maria and her great Russian-loving glorious family and her glorious Ancestors.This is a "thorough nonsense"I am sorry for you,you are completely not informed and prejudiced about her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, de jure Empress of Russia and all the Russias.She every bit Royal and Imperial! Trully Russian in her upbringing, in her manners, in language and Russian customs.Her Website is the most beautiful Site of all the Royal Sites of Reigning and non-regning Royal Families...1st of all the Patriarch of Moscow and Russia recognizes her and the Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad that was recently united the Russian Patriarchate recognizes her.Grand Duchess Maria was the only member of the Romanof Family present at the official  Divine Liturgy of Reunion of their Churches.Grand Duchess Maria has bestowed Awards of the Russian Imperial House to the Patriarch and the Patriarch has accepted them.Her father the late Grand Duke Vladimir is buried in the Fortress of Peter and Paul among the Russian Tsars.President Yelsin recognized him and when he visited Paris he wanted to see the Tcharevitch Grand Duke George Maria's only son...Grand Duke George swore in the presence of the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem to protect and uphold the Orthodox Faith.I am quoting from the Book "the Queen[Elisabeth II]and her Royal relations...a Who's Who of the Royal House of Europe."Russian Imperial Family'.."Vladimir Cyrilovitch Head of Russian Royal Family"!!!..written in the 1950s...also from the Book by Grand Duke Alexander husband of Grand Duchess Xenia sister of the last Tsar Nicolas II written in1933 A.D."Always a Grand Duke"..page 137"..according to some five hundred thousand exiled Russian Monarchists...he is Emperor Cyril I of all the Russias the legitimate Successor to the Throne of the Romanoffs relinquished by his Cousin czar Nicholas on March 15,1917."...Dmitri and you Theodore are like those who refuse to recognize Ellisabeth II as Queen of great Britain and think she should not be on the Throne and that legitimate King or Queen is the Jacobite Claimant whose ancestor gave up his rights long long ago to George III 200 years ago...They live in a fantasy world not in the World of reality...Guys, please wake up!!!...and this for Dmitri..Catherine the Great she was thoroughly German but became Tsarina of Russia and more Russian than the Russians!..The 2nd wife Peter the Great was a Lithuanian servant girl and she succeded Peter the Great as Empress for 2 years after he died...The Royal Families of Europe marry first cousins as Queen Victoria married her first cousin Albert of Saxe Coburg Gotha.Incest is marriage between brothers and sisters not cousins..please do not distort the facts...Empress Theodora the wife of Emperor Justinian the Great was a Circus performer and a courtisan before she married Justinian and became a great Empress..Dmitri do not be a bad Russian and a bad Orthodox Christian..do not speak evil of Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Leonida of Russia....Dmitri this is your Imperial Russian Family..Be a good Russian and a good a loyal Russian Orthodox Christian by going  along with the  Russian Patriarch your Spiritual Leader and accept Grande Duchess Leonida Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke George as your Patriarch Alexei II accepts them and honors them.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: 52560002.JPG, Views: 27, Size: 435.86 KB 

royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #4 
I didn't say I agreed with Dmitry.  "Thorough" just means that his post was very long and detailed, more an observation than a compliment.

I support Maria Vladimirovna!


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #5 

Thanks dear Moderator for your explanation. I know you are open-minded and intelligent.When I support this or that, him or her it is that I look at History and the facts and the real situaton.For me whoever ascends the vacant Thrones of Europe it is alright,I will be happy and I will accept him.And I will applaud him or her...We have to see among the claimants who is well established and accepted by the majority of the Reigning and non-Reigning Royal Families and by the Powers to be, be Religious or Political or Secular and we have to read our resources and Books...a good article that makes a very good point for GrandDuchess Maria and Prince George Bagration of Georgia is an article I read in the Internet.The Romanovs and the Bagrations..I have to check about the Author next time...That is why I support the Pope also because I read from History that everyone be it King or Emperor,  Patriarch or Bishop, be it Ecumenical or Local Council, be it Eastern and Western Father, they all accepted his Authority and nothing was done without him consenting and agreeing...and he is still the undisputed Leading Religious Christian Authority and leading spokesman of Christendom.Everyone looks to him for unity and is engaged in Dialogue... Thanks again.

royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #6 
I don't know if this is what you (Cornelius) were thinking of, but here is an article in favor of the claim of Maria Vladimirovna:

http://www.riuo.org/RussianImperialSuccession/russianimperialsuccession.html



Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #7 

I found the Article,search in the Internet,  The Romanoffs and the Bagrations by Daniel Sargis  This is a thorough and convincing essay.I will check your link also.Thanks.   

BaronVonServers

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 11,993
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius

...That is why I support the Pope also because I read from History that everyone be it King or Emperor,  Patriarch or Bishop, be it Ecumenical or Local Council, be it Eastern and Western Father, they all accepted his Authority and nothing was done without him consenting and agreeing...

Right on up through Nicea II (from whence we get the 'last doctrinal statement of the united Church' )- and mind you even that is a bit iffy with the post council additions the west added - the filogue didn't get full united 'catholic' church 'OK' until the end of the 20th Century.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius
and he is still the undisputed Leading Religious Christian Authority and leading spokesman of Christendom.Everyone looks to him for unity and is engaged in Dialogue... Thanks again.


The last part is not true. 
I wish every community of the Christian Church were engaged in open and dialog, seeking to restore unity to the body (with Christ as head, and no man) but it simply isn't so.  The Pope leads the largest denomination, and he gets the respect he deserves for that - (well mostly he does), and he is the Sovereign of the Holy See - which is also worthy and respected, but sadly there is no undisputed LRCA.

__________________
"In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas"

I am NOT an authorized representative of my Government.

Learn more about the Dominion of British West Florida at http://dbwf.net
royalcello

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 6,830
Reply with quote  #9 
Please, let's keep the focus of this thread on the Romanovs and the Russian monarchy...


Registered:
Posts: N/A
Reply with quote  #10 

I quite agree!..So I want to say that I am very lucky to find this Book "Always a Grand Duke"the autobiography of Grand Duke Alexander first cousin of Czar Alexander III father of Nicholas II,who Grand Duke married the sister of Nicholas II G.Duchess Xenia...Boxes with Books were delivered to  some place for people to take free from a House whose owner probably had passed away and I happened to be there and among them I found this very important Biography which discribes in detail how the Grand Duke escaped from the Bolshevics and what was happening at that time among the exiles and in the Royal Courts of Europe...So let's see what else the Grand Duke says about Grand Duke Cyril and the other claimant then..."the first one_my nephew Cyril_acted whithin his rights being the legitimate successor to Crown and Czardom"..The Grand Duke has spoken all arguments now against Grand Duke Cyril are useless.The grand duke has spoken the Truth with authority..Let's read further.."the other two[pretenders,claimants]my cousin Nicholas and my nephew Dimitry-fell victims to the enthusiasm of their supporters"...the G.Duke calls them "victims" of others enthusiasm.So the G.Duke is absolutly certain and noone disputes that.Grand Duke Cyril the grandfather  of Grand Duchess Maria is the rightful and legitimate hier of Czar and the others are poor "victims"...and let's read further.. one day he says:"I woke up to discover that my son Nikita had beig dully elected Czar..[by]..a 'dissenting' fraction of Royalists..""..I protested vehemently..[Nikita]..was happily married..and was possessed of no ambitions whatever to compete with Grand Duke Cyril"...For the Grand Duke any claimant to the Throne besides Grand Duke Cyril was a "victim" of thers groundelss enthusiasm.TherE is but one rightful successor to Czar Nichlas II Grand Duke Cyril.So all and any who now dispute the claims of Grand Duchess Maria have no ground to stand .Her Grandfather was  indeed the legitimate heir and his son Grand Duke Vladimir succeded him and he in turn appointed his daughter G.Duchess Maria Curatix of the Russian Throne for her son Grand Duke George.

MichaelPasha

Registered:
Posts: 1
Reply with quote  #11 
The so-called Grand Duke Georgi Mikailovich (son of Russian Pretender G.D. Maria Vladimirovna) has been engaged to marry a commoner for over 5 years. Why haven't they married? His claim to the Russian throne is spurious: his father is a Preussian Prince, so his family is not Romanoff, but Hohenzollern. IF he marries Rebecca Bettarini as he has said he would...their children will not be Royal heirs...as it will be a morganatic marriage.
__________________
Zargarov
Admiral_Horthy

Registered:
Posts: 65
Reply with quote  #12 
Since George has no wife and heirs he is a deadend.
Peter

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 7,547
Reply with quote  #13 
Since the election of Michael, the first Romanoff Tsar, Russian monarchs who were agnates of the original Romanoff family have been Michael himself, Alexis, Feodor III, Ivan V, Peter I, Peter II, Anna and Elizabeth. Russian monarchs who were not agnates of the original Romanoff family have been Catherine I, Ivan VI, Peter III, Catherine II, Paul, Alexander I, Nicholas I, Alexander II, Alexander III and Nicholas II. There are eight individuals in the first group, ten in the second, from four different family lines and two of them, the two Catherines, with no Romanoff blood at all. The other eight each had one though only one line of cognatic Romanoff descent. Which sufficed. I am a little at a loss then to know why Grand Duke George, who by my count has five such lines, is barred from succession on account of belonging to a fifth family line (itself an ancient royal house of the highest eminence).

Grand Duke George's marriage is another matter. There I agree entirely that if he marries unequally any children he might have would thereby be excluded from succession, nor do I see any scope for an unequal marriage to be declared nevertheless dynastic. Any such pronouncement I would regard as entirely null and void, and while Grand Duke George's personal succession right would be unaffected attention would turn after him to the Leiningen line as next heirs.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.