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azadi

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1. Kurdistan has obtained independence from Iraq.
2. The Iranian ayatollah regime has been overthrown, and Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi has been elected Shah of Iran. The Lion and Sun flag has been restored. Muslim Iranians have been allowed to convert to other religions, and homosexuality has been decriminalized.
3. The Republican People's Party is the ruling party of Turkey.
4. Assad stays in power in Syria with Russian support after the downfall of the Iranian ayatollah regime.

InVinoVeritas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi
1. Kurdistan has obtained independence from Iraq.
2. The Iranian ayatollah regime has been overthrown, and Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi has been elected Shah of Iran. The Lion and Sun flag has been restored. Muslim Iranians have been allowed to convert to other religions, and homosexuality has been decriminalized.
3. The Republican People's Party is the ruling party of Turkey.
4. Assad stays in power in Syria with Russian support after the downfall of the Iranian ayatollah regime.



I can agree with the independence of Kurdistan and the restoration of the Shah. But I have a hard time understanding why you would support Kemalists or Ba'athists or advocate for the legalization of homosexuality in Iran.

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"Democratic governments are not suited to the publication of the thunderous revelations I am in the habit of making. The unpublished parts will appear later … when Europe will have restored its traditional monarchies." -Salvador Dalí, Diary of a Genius (1964)
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas


I can agree with the independence of Kurdistan and the restoration of the Shah. But I have a hard time understanding why you would support Kemalists or Ba'athists or advocate for the legalization of homosexuality in Iran.

Monarchism is sadly insignificant in Turkey, unlike in Iran and in Russia. I would like the Osmanoglu monarchy to be restored in Turkey, but this thread is about plausible options for the future of the Middle East. I'm a secularist, who strongly support freedom of religion, including the right of Muslims to convert to another religion. Erdogan promotes religious bigotry and anti-Semitism, and I dislike Erdogan's support for Hamas, a Palestinian terrorist movement, and his massive purges. The Republican People's Party has moved away from rigid Kemalist secularism, and it no longer supports oppression of the Kurds in Turkey.
I'm not an admirer of Assad, but he is the least bad option for Syria. I hate the PKK/PYD and the Islamist Syrian rebels.
Advocating persecution of homosexuals is unacceptable. Being gay isn't a choice. It's an accident of birth. Private consensual sex acts between adult of the same sex harms nobody. In Iran, gays are hanged from cranes. That's unacceptable. But I'm opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption, because I support traditional families.
InVinoVeritas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

Monarchism is sadly insignificant in Turkey, unlike in Iran and in Russia. I would like the Osmanoglu monarchy to be restored in Turkey, but this thread is about plausible options for the future of the Middle East. I'm a secularist, who strongly support freedom of religion, including the right of Muslims to convert to another religion. Erdogan promotes religious bigotry and anti-Semitism, and I dislike Erdogan's support for Hamas, a Palestinian terrorist movement, and his massive purges. The Republican People's Party has moved away from rigid Kemalist secularism, and it no longer supports oppression of the Kurds in Turkey.
I'm not an admirer of Assad, but he is the least bad option for Syria. I hate the PKK/PYD and the Islamist Syrian rebels.
Advocating persecution of homosexuals is unacceptable. Being gay isn't a choice. It's an accident of birth. Private consensual sex acts between adult of the same sex harms nobody. In Iran, gays are hanged from cranes. That's unacceptable. But I'm opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption, because I support traditional families.


Oh, didn't realize this was about that.

Well, I can personally support neither Erdogan nor Assad. I hope for monarchy to be restored in those countries sooner or later, but until that, I guess anything more traditional will do.

I'm personally undecided on the question of homosexuality. However, couldn't it be argued that committing homosexual acts is a choice and that they should be persecuted as such? How do you reconcile your Christian beliefs with your approval of homosexuality? I really want to discuss this with someone because, like I said, I have no idea what to think.

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"Democratic governments are not suited to the publication of the thunderous revelations I am in the habit of making. The unpublished parts will appear later … when Europe will have restored its traditional monarchies." -Salvador Dalí, Diary of a Genius (1964)
azadi

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas


Oh, didn't realize this was about that.

Well, I can personally support neither Erdogan nor Assad. I hope for monarchy to be restored in those countries sooner or later, but until that, I guess anything more traditional will do.

I'm personally undecided on the question of homosexuality. However, couldn't it be argued that committing homosexual acts is a choice and that they should be persecuted as such? How do you reconcile your Christian beliefs with your approval of homosexuality? I really want to discuss this with someone because, like I said, I have no idea what to think.

I would like the Osmanoglu monarchy to be restored in Turkey. I actually like the Ottoman Empire, unlike most members of the forum, because it was tolerant of the Kurdish language and Kurdish culture, and because it was religiously tolerant. I don't support Erdogan. The Republican People's Party is the major opposition party in Turkey.
I don't support restoration of the Hashemite monarchy of Syria, because it was very short-lived. 
I'm opposed to persecution of homosexuality, because private consensual homosexual acts hurt nobody. If homosexuality is a sin, it may be punished by God, but the state shall not punish homosexuality. But I'm strongly opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption, because I support the traditional family.
InVinoVeritas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

I would like the Osmanoglu monarchy to be restored in Turkey. I actually like the Ottoman Empire, unlike most members of the forum, because it was tolerant of the Kurdish language and Kurdish culture, and because it was religiously tolerant. I don't support Erdogan. The Republican People's Party is the major opposition party in Turkey.
I don't support restoration of the Hashemite monarchy of Syria, because it was very short-lived. 
I'm opposed to persecution of homosexuality, because private consensual homosexual acts hurt nobody. If homosexuality is a sin, it may be punished by God, but the state shall not punish homosexuality. But I'm strongly opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption, because I support the traditional family.


I like the Ottoman Empire too. I also like the Islamic culture of olden times generally.

But couldn't it be argued that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle? I also don't think we should just brush aside the Bible when it comes to lawmaking. By the way, have you heard of the Russian poet Nikolai Klyuev? He was an ardent Old Believer and a homosexual. I quite like his work. He's partly the reason for my hesitance to condemn homosexuality.

__________________
"Democratic governments are not suited to the publication of the thunderous revelations I am in the habit of making. The unpublished parts will appear later … when Europe will have restored its traditional monarchies." -Salvador Dalí, Diary of a Genius (1964)
azadi

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by InVinoVeritas


I like the Ottoman Empire too. I also like the Islamic culture of olden times generally.

But couldn't it be argued that homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle? I also don't think we should just brush aside the Bible when it comes to lawmaking. By the way, have you heard of the Russian poet Nikolai Klyuev? He was an ardent Old Believer and a homosexual. I quite like his work. He's partly the reason for my hesitance to condemn homosexuality.

I support separation of religion and politics. I'm not opposed to the existence of established Christian churches in majority Christian countries, but I'm opposed to laws, which impose Christian morality on the society. Living in accordance with Christian morality ought to be a personal choice. But I'm opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption, because I support the traditional family. I have never heard of Nikolai Klyuev, despite my love of Russian literature. Lev Tolstoy is my favourite author. I love War and Peace and Anna Karenina.
InVinoVeritas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azadi

I support separation of religion and politics. I'm not opposed to the existence of established Christian churches in majority Christian countries, but I'm opposed to laws, which impose Christian morality on the society. Living in accordance with Christian morality ought to be a personal choice. But I'm opposed to gay marriage and gay adoption, because I support the traditional family. I have never heard of Nikolai Klyuev, despite my love of Russian literature. Lev Tolstoy is my favourite author. I love War and Peace and Anna Karenina.


I don't see it that way, but I don't think it's wise to continue this discussion since neither one of us is probably going to change his opinion.

I'm actually highly interested in the Silver Age of Russian poetry. When I was a heavy drinker, I used to read Yesenin a lot, especially poems like "A letter to a woman" and "The black man", and he's still one of my favorite poets. Klyeuv and Blok taught him lyricism.

__________________
"Democratic governments are not suited to the publication of the thunderous revelations I am in the habit of making. The unpublished parts will appear later … when Europe will have restored its traditional monarchies." -Salvador Dalí, Diary of a Genius (1964)
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