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DavidV

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Reply with quote  #1 
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/05/china-faces-tough-choices-bid-end-ongoing-hong-kong-protests/

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/protests-a-warning-to-china-howard/news-story/fa9c9dbba585e9aacf14e8e24f0f3ca5

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/hong-kong-it%E2%80%99s-now-revolution-71491

The latest round of protests in Hong Kong - following the mass protests of 2003 and 2014 - have had much wider-ranging consequences and appear to be sustained for longer. These protests were sparked by a proposed extradition bill, in which criminal suspects would be extradited to Mainland China. This has frightened many in Hong Kong, who believe the Chinese regime is further extending its authority, and may use this to send people to their fate on the Mainland, where fair trials do not exist.

While the bill has been suspended (not withdrawn), the protesters have become emboldened and radicalised. The protesters' demands for full democratic reform in the territory are longstanding, but the recently-formed "localist" movement demands not only greater self-government but in some cases independence for the territory. There is a strong current of colonial era nostalgia, Hong Kong residents appreciative of British civic values and freedoms they enjoyed and fear is being eroded. The protests are also brought by pressing socioeconomic issues.

Carrie Lam is Hong Kong's fourth chief executive, and she's managed to become even more hated than her predecessors. Her immediate predecessor, CY Leung, was already deeply unpopular even in "pro-Beijing" Establishment circles. Lam is well down the same path, and has been rendered impotent by the unrest. The first Chief Executive, Tung Chee-Hwa, became highly unpopular after the 2003 security bill protests that led to him resigning two years later. His successor, Donald Tsang, was convicted and jailed for corruption but then had this quashed - yet he now seems a benign figure compared to the two that followed him.

The Chinese regime is confronted with a difficult dilemma. President Trump is already ramping up the pressure on trade issues, and the timing couldn't be more impeccable. The protesters have much public sympathy in the US and UK - they're flying British and American flags as well - and the world is becoming more aware of how evil this regime truly is.

For Beijing there are no "good" options. Do nothing or make concessions and they will appear weak, but if they take the hard line with possible PLA intervention, it will cause universal revulsion and also ruin Hong Kong socially and economically.

I have written on protests in Iran and how Iranians have lost fear of the regime - one which makes the regime's downfall and possible restoration of the monarchy a more realistic prospect than it once was. With China it's a whole different ballgame - it aspires to superpower status with terrifying consequences for all of humanity. Those who wish for the demise of liberal democracy and of Western power and hegemony might want to think about what will replace it all. We all know now. Be careful what you wish for.
azadi

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Posts: 373
Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/05/china-faces-tough-choices-bid-end-ongoing-hong-kong-protests/

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/protests-a-warning-to-china-howard/news-story/fa9c9dbba585e9aacf14e8e24f0f3ca5

https://nationalinterest.org/feature/hong-kong-it%E2%80%99s-now-revolution-71491

The latest round of protests in Hong Kong - following the mass protests of 2003 and 2014 - have had much wider-ranging consequences and appear to be sustained for longer. These protests were sparked by a proposed extradition bill, in which criminal suspects would be extradited to Mainland China. This has frightened many in Hong Kong, who believe the Chinese regime is further extending its authority, and may use this to send people to their fate on the Mainland, where fair trials do not exist.

While the bill has been suspended (not withdrawn), the protesters have become emboldened and radicalised. The protesters' demands for full democratic reform in the territory are longstanding, but the recently-formed "localist" movement demands not only greater self-government but in some cases independence for the territory. There is a strong current of colonial era nostalgia, Hong Kong residents appreciative of British civic values and freedoms they enjoyed and fear is being eroded. The protests are also brought by pressing socioeconomic issues.

Carrie Lam is Hong Kong's fourth chief executive, and she's managed to become even more hated than her predecessors. Her immediate predecessor, CY Leung, was already deeply unpopular even in "pro-Beijing" Establishment circles. Lam is well down the same path, and has been rendered impotent by the unrest. The first Chief Executive, Tung Chee-Hwa, became highly unpopular after the 2003 security bill protests that led to him resigning two years later. His successor, Donald Tsang, was convicted and jailed for corruption but then had this quashed - yet he now seems a benign figure compared to the two that followed him.

The Chinese regime is confronted with a difficult dilemma. President Trump is already ramping up the pressure on trade issues, and the timing couldn't be more impeccable. The protesters have much public sympathy in the US and UK - they're flying British and American flags as well - and the world is becoming more aware of how evil this regime truly is.

For Beijing there are no "good" options. Do nothing or make concessions and they will appear weak, but if they take the hard line with possible PLA intervention, it will cause universal revulsion and also ruin Hong Kong socially and economically.

I have written on protests in Iran and how Iranians have lost fear of the regime - one which makes the regime's downfall and possible restoration of the monarchy a more realistic prospect than it once was. With China it's a whole different ballgame - it aspires to superpower status with terrifying consequences for all of humanity. Those who wish for the demise of liberal democracy and of Western power and hegemony might want to think about what will replace it all. We all know now. Be careful what you wish for.

There is no need to defend Western power and hegemony. I support a multipolar world with many competing global great powers, because no global great power is infallible. USA often makes the wrong decisions in foreign policy. USA supports PYD in Syria, while not supporting Kurdish independence from Iraq. Russia supports Kurdish independence from Iraq and supports Assad against PYD. To me, taking the side of the Western powers against China and Russia makes no sense. Neither China nor Russia wants to subjugate the rest of the world. The Hong Kong crisis has nothing to do with a Chinese desire to dominate the rest of the world, and the reunification of Crimea with Russia has nothing to do with a Russian desire to dominate the rest of the world. The Hong Kong crisis is an internal matter of China, and the majority of the population of Crimea are Russians. Neither China nor Russia is a threat to Western democracies, because neither China nor Russia wants to export their political system to other countries. 
Democracy in the Western world isn't under threat, despite liberals and leftists often claiming it. Despite a lot of liberal and leftist criticism against the conservative nationalist governments of Hungary and Poland, they haven't tried to abolish free elections. Liberals and leftists even claim, that Trump is trying to abolish American democracy, which is obviously nonsense. The claim, that the right-wing nationalist wave is threatening democracy is a lie, which is made by liberals and leftists in order to demonize their opponents. 
DavidV

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Posts: 5,035
Reply with quote  #3 
A good piece on how "anti-imperialism" is a buzzword to defend violently oppressive regimes (mainly Leftist and Islamist ones):

https://medium.com/muros-invisibles/how-anti-imperialism-became-a-buzzword-for-oppressors-a6e9ace5c7ed
azadi

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Posts: 373
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidV
A good piece on how "anti-imperialism" is a buzzword to defend violently oppressive regimes (mainly Leftist and Islamist ones):

https://medium.com/muros-invisibles/how-anti-imperialism-became-a-buzzword-for-oppressors-a6e9ace5c7ed

I support Chinese rule in Hong Kong, because the Hong Kongers are ethnic Chinese, and unlike the Republic of China on Taiwan, the autonomous region of Hong Kong isn't a legitimate anti-Communist Chinese state, but a relic of British colonialism. Hong Kong being a British colony was a symbol of Western humiliation of China. I'm an anti-colonialist, and supporting British colonialism in Hong Kong is unacceptable to me. I will support a Tiananmen-style crackdown in Hong Kong, because the Hong Kong protesters are globalist liberals rather than anti-Communist Chinese nationalists. I don't support abolishing the special status of Hong Kong, because Hong Kong ought to remain exempt from the state atheism of the Communist Party of China, but I support banning pro-democracy political parties in Hong Kong. Only pro-Beijing parties must be allowed to exist in Hong Kong. 
royalcello

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Reply with quote  #5 
Well I think it is utterly appalling and disgusting that you side with an evil Communist regime over protesters who love the Queen and the British flag. Such repugnant views are NOT welcome on this forum and if you reiterate them you will be banned.
DavidV

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Reply with quote  #6 
Thank you Theodore. It shouldn't even be an issue here. The regimes that rule China and Iran warrant condemnation at every turn. In fact, the scary thing is the extent of CCP operations in other countries, attempting to win over Chinese communities and influential public opinion.

In Vancouver there has been some of the vilest things - people in luxury sports cars waving PRC flags and now picketing churches:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3023369/canadian-police-escort-worshippers-bullying-pro-china-protesters
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