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Windemere

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks, Murtagon,  for this interesting discussion on the agnatic lines of the Wittelsbachs, Wettins, Hohenzollerns, and Savoyards.  When time permits, I'll add some commentary to the Wittelsbach section.

But first a question for Peter......I'd always considered the Franks and the Saxons to be somewhat distinct from each other. The Capetians had a Frankish origin, but I'd always thought that the Wettins had a Saxon one. Or do they actually both have a Frankish one ?  Or is it that the distinction between Franks and Saxons perhaps actually isn't genetically significant, especially among the nobility ?  Thanks for any further insight on this that may be available.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
The origins of Theodoric I, the earliest documented Wettin ancestor, are much speculated on. As the link shows, he has been suggested to have come from several different noble lines. But all, like the Franks, were of Germanic and therefore similar roots. 'Frankish' was a careless expression, but I think the point remains.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #18 
Dynasty №8: House of Württemberg

Originally known as a comital House from the late 11th century, this family gained the title of Duke in 1495. The descent here begins with the first person whose main line still exists.

It's worth mentioning that Württemberg was briefly an Electorate from 1803 to 1806, all thanks to Napoleon Bonaparte. It was then a Kingdom until late 1918.

I. House of Württemberg:
  1. Frederick I, Duke of Württemberg (1557 - 1608), father of...
  2. John Frederick, Duke of Württemberg (1582 - 1628), father of...
  3. Eberhard III, Duke of Württemberg (1614 - 1674), father of...
  4. William Louis, Duke of Württemberg (1647 - 1677), father of...
  5. Eberhard Louis, Duke of Württemberg (1676 - 1733), first cousin of...

II. House of Württemberg-Winnental [Descended from Eberhard III, Duke of Württemberg, through his son, Frederick Charles, Duke of Württemberg-Winnental]:
  1. Charles Alexander, Duke of Württemberg (1684 - 1737), father of...
  2. Charles Eugene, Duke of Württemberg (1728 - 1793), brother of...
  3. Louis Eugene, Duke of Württemberg (1731 - 1795), brother of...
  4. Frederick II Eugene, Duke of Württemberg (1732 - 1797), father of...
  5. Frederick I of Württemberg (1754 - 1816), father of...
  6. William I of Württemberg (1781 - 1864), father of...
  7. Charles I of Württemberg (1823 - 1891), first cousin once removed of...

III. House of Württemberg (Junior branch) [Descended from Frederick I of Württemberg through his son, Prince Paul of Württemberg]:
  1. William II of Württemberg (1848 - 1921), third cousin of...

IV. House of Teck [Descended from Frederick II Eugene, Duke of Württemberg, through his son, Duke Louis of Württemberg]:
  1. Adolphus Cambridge, 1st Marquess of Cambridge (1868 - 1927), father of...
  2. George Cambridge, 2nd Marquess of Cambridge (1895 - 1981), third cousin once removed of...

V. House of Urach [Descended from Frederick II Eugene, Duke of Württemberg, through his son, Duke William Frederick Philip of Württemberg]:
  1. Karl Gero, Duke of Urach (1899 - 1981), uncle of...
  2. Karl Anselm, Duke of Urach (b. 1955).
Of course, the marriage between Duke Alexander of Württemberg (1804–1885) and Countess Claudine Rhédey von Kis-Rhéde (1812 - 1841) was morganatic. As such, their male line was bypassed for the purposes of the royal succession. The change from Teck to Cambridge didn't change matters much in this case.
Similarly, the marriage between Duke William Frederick Philip of Württemberg (1761 - 1830) and Wilhelmine Freiin von Tunderfeld-Rhodis (1777–1822) was also non-dynastic. Because of this, the Dukes of Urach are not considered the proper heirs either.
In other words, when he died in 1921, the last King was succeeded by his other third cousin...

IV (Real). House of Württemberg (Ducal branch) [Descended from Frederick II Eugene, Duke of Württemberg, through his son, Duke Alexander of Württemberg]:
  1. Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (1865 - 1939), father of...
  2. Philipp Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (1893 - 1975), father of...
  3. Duke Ludwig Albrecht of Württemberg (1930 - 2019), father of...
  4. Duke Christoph of Württemberg (b. 1960).
As IV (Real) - 3 appears to have had renounced his rights, the actual succession went in the following manner:
  1. Philipp Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (1893 - 1975), father of...
  2. Carl, Duke of Württemberg (b. 1936).
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IV-A. House of Teck:
  1. Duke Louis of Württemberg (1756 - 1817), father of...
  2. Duke Adam of Württemberg (1792 - 1847), half-brother of...
  3. Duke Alexander of Württemberg (1804–1885), father of...
  4. Francis, Duke of Teck (1837 - 1900), father of...
  5. Adolphus Cambridge, 1st Marquess of Cambridge (1868 - 1927), same as IV-1.
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V-A. House of Urach:
  1. Duke William Frederick Philip of Württemberg (1761 - 1830), father of...
  2. Alexander of Württemberg (1801–1844), father of...
  3. Eberhard, Graf von Württemberg (1833 - 1896), first cousin of...
V-B. House of Urach (Ducal branch) [Descended from Duke William Frederick Philip of Württemberg, through his son, Wilhelm, Duke of Urach]:
  1. Wilhelm Karl, Duke of Urach (1864 - 1928), father of...
  2. Wilhelm von Urach (1897 - 1957), brother of...
  3. Karl Gero, Duke of Urach (1899 - 1981), same as V-1.
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Fun fact: Queen Elizabeth II is related to Vlad the Impaler due to her descent from Countess Claudine Rhédey von Kis-Rhéde. 

Slightly off-topic: Thanks to Windemere and Peter for the discussion about the origin of the Wettins and the Capetians. In my opinion, almost all German noble families should be closely related (agnatically). The House of Mecklenburg is probably a big exception. The Hohenzollerns may also be more distantly related, but it hasn't been proven with certainty.

As for the long Brandenburger male line: how impressive that it lasted for exactly three centuries (1486 to 1786).
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #19 
Dynasty №9: House of Baden

Also known as the House of Zähringen, this family has existed since the 11th century. This descent is about the senior line, which originally ruled the Margraviate of Baden, which was briefly an Electorate from 1803 to 1806, at which point it became a Grand Duchy. The monarchy was abolished in late 1918.

I. House of Baden:
  1. Herman II, Margrave of Baden (c. 1060 - 1130), father of...
  2. Herman III, Margrave of Baden (c. 1105 - 1160), father of...
  3. Herman IV, Margrave of Baden (1135 - 1190), father of...
  4. Herman V, Margrave of Baden-Baden (c. 1180 - 1243), father of...
  5. Herman VI, Margrave of Baden (c. 1226 - 1250), father of...
  6. Frederick I, Margrave of Baden (1249 - 1268), nephew of...
  7. Rudolf I, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1230 - 1288), father of...
  8. Herman VII, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1266 - 1291), father of...
  9. Frederick II, Margrave of Baden-Eberstein (? - 1333), father of...
  10. Herman IX, Margrave of Baden-Eberstein (? - 1353), first cousin of...

II. House of Baden - Baden [Descended from Herman VII, Margrave of Baden-Baden, through his son, Rudolf IV, Margrave of Baden-Pforzheim]:
  1. Frederick III, Margrave of Baden (1327 - 1353), father of...
  2. Rudolf VI, Margrave of Baden (? - 1372), father of...
  3. Bernard I, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1364 - 1431), father of...
  4. Jacob, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1407 - 1453), father of...
  5. Charles I, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1427 - 1475), father of...
  6. Christoph I, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1453 - 1527), father of...
  7. Bernhard III, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1474 - 1536), father of...
  8. Philibert, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1536 - 1569), father of...
  9. Philip II, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1559 - 1588), first cousin of...

III. House of Baden - Baden (Junior branch) [Descended from Bernhard III, Margrave of Baden-Baden, through his son, Christopher II, Margrave of Baden-Rodemachern]:
  1. Edward Fortunatus (1565 - 1600), father of...
  2. William, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1593 - 1677), grandfather of...
  3. Louis William, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1655 - 1707), father of...
  4. Louis George, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1702 - 1761), brother of...
  5. Augustus George, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1706 - 1771), sixth cousin twice removed of...

IV. House of Baden - Durlach [Descended from Christoph I, Margrave of Baden-Baden, through his son, Ernest, Margrave of Baden-Durlach]:
  1. Charles Frederick, Grand Duke of Baden (1728 - 1811), grandfather of...
  2. Charles, Grand Duke of Baden (1786 - 1818), nephew of...
  3. Louis I, Grand Duke of Baden (1763 - 1830), half-brother of...
  4. Leopold, Grand Duke of Baden (1790 - 1852), father of...
  5. Louis II, Grand Duke of Baden (1824 - 1858), brother of...
  6. Frederick I, Grand Duke of Baden (1826 - 1907), father of...
  7. Frederick II, Grand Duke of Baden (1857 - 1928), first cousin of...

V. House of Baden (Junior branch) [Descended from Leopold, Grand Duke of Baden, through his son, Prince William of Baden]:
  1. Prince Maximilian of Baden (1867 - 1929), father of...
  2. Berthold, Margrave of Baden (1906 - 1963), father of...
  3. Maximilian, Margrave of Baden (b. 1933).
The House of Baden would have gone extinct in 1830, if it hadn't been for the fact that the children from the morganatic second marriage of the very first Grand Duke of Baden were granted dynastic status. This was not without precedent. Charles II, Margrave of Baden-Durlach, had also been born of such a marriage. In fact, the German Wikipedia wryly notes that the House of Baden never had a shortage of male heirs - they just weren't always born of dynastic marriages.
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IV-A. House of Baden-Durlach:
  1. Ernest, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1482 - 1553), father of...
  2. Charles II, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1529 - 1557), father of...
  3. Ernest Frederick, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1560 - 1604), brother of...
  4. Georg Friedrich, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1573 - 1638), father of...
  5. Frederick V, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1594 - 1659), father of...
  6. Frederick VI, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1617 - 1677), father of...
  7. Frederick VII, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1647 - 1709), father of...
  8. Charles III William, Margrave of Baden-Durlach (1679 - 1738), grandfather of...
  9. Charles Frederick, Grand Duke of Baden (1728 - 1811), same as IV-1.
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It's worth noting that if I hadn't shown the Margraves, I would have been left with a very short descent. Still, I am slightly amazed that I didn't have to go through any actual morganauts. Impressive.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 
III.2 was also born of such a marriage, his father Edward Fortunatus (III.1) having married a Dutch lady of respectable family to be sure, but nowhere near noble enough for her to be an acceptable Margravine. In fact their children never were accepted as dynasts by other Zähringen branches, but that status was gained just the same through the fortunes of war, Edward having converted to Catholicism as a young man and his therefore also Catholic son William being favoured by the Catholic side in the Thirty Years' War, which at that time was ascendant.

III.3 incidentally was among the greatest and most famous generals of the day, eclipsed perhaps only by his cousin Prince Eugene of Savoy. Descent from him survives through the House of Orléans, and is therefore enjoyed by the Kings of Spain and Belgium and the Grand Duke of Luxembourg. Descent from Edward Fortunatus and his unacceptable bride is more widespread, extending I believe to all reigning European monarchs except the two Princes (Prince Joseph Wenzel of Liechtenstein however is a descendant, and is also eventual heir).
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #21 
Dynasty №10: House of Hesse

Descended from the House of Brabant (and the even earlier Reginarids), this dynasty is one of the last German ones to have a male line dating from before 1000 A.D. 

The descent featured here begins with the very first Landgrave of Hesse from the mid 13th century. The Head of the senior line was promoted to Elector in 1803 and this title remained in use until 1866, when Hesse-Kassel was annexed by the Kingdom of Prussia.

I. House of Hesse:
  1. Henry I, Landgrave of Hesse (1244 - 1308), father of...
  2. Otto I, Landgrave of Hesse (c. 1272 - 1328), father of...
  3. Henry II, Landgrave of Hesse (c. 1299 - 1376), uncle of...
  4. Hermann II, Landgrave of Hesse (1341 - 1413), father of...
  5. Louis I, Landgrave of Hesse (1402 - 1458), father of...
  6. Louis II, Landgrave of Lower Hesse (1438 - 1471), father of...
  7. William I, Landgrave of Lower Hesse (1466 - 1515), uncle of...
  8. Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse (1504 - 1567), father of...
  9. William IV, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1532 - 1592), father of...
  10. Maurice, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1572 - 1632), father of...
  11. William V, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1602 - 1637), father of...
  12. William VI, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1629 - 1663), father of...
  13. William VII, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1651 - 1670), brother of...
  14. Charles I, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1654 - 1730), father of...
  15. Frederick I of Sweden (1676 - 1751), brother of...
  16. William VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1682 - 1760), father of...
  17. Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (1720 - 1785), father of...
  18. William I, Elector of Hesse (1743 - 1821), father of...
  19. William II, Elector of Hesse (1777 - 1847), father of...
  20. Frederick William, Elector of Hesse (1802 - 1875), father of...
  21. Friedrich Wilhelm, Prinz von Hanau und Horowitz (1832 - 1889), father of...
  22. Prince Friedrich von Hanau, Graf von Schaumburg (1864 - 1940), father of...
  23. Heinrich, 5.Fürst von Hanau (1900 - 1971), father of...
  24. Karl Heinrich, 6.Fürst von Hanau (1923 - 1998), father of...
  25. Philipp, Prinz von Hanau (b. 1959).
Of course, the marriage between Frederick William, Elector of Hesse (1802 - 1875) and Gertrude Falkenstein (1803 - 1882) was morganatic. As such, the last Elector was dynastically succeeded by his second cousin...

II. House of Hesse-Kassel [Descended from Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, through his son, Prince Frederick of Hesse-Kassel]:
  1. Prince Frederick William of Hesse-Kassel (1820 - 1884), father of...
  2. Frederick William III of Hesse (1854 - 1888), brother of...
  3. Alexander Frederick, Landgrave of Hesse (1863 - 1945), uncle of...
  4. Philipp, Landgrave of Hesse (1896 - 1980), father of...
  5. Moritz, Landgrave of Hesse (1926 - 2013), father of...
  6. Donatus, Landgrave of Hesse (b. 1966).
There are two things I would like to point out here:
1) I-25 may actually be the nephew of his predecessor - not that important in the grand scheme of things;
2) II-3 had "abdicated" in 1925 in favour of his brother, Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse (1868 - 1940), who was going to be the King of Finland in 1918, but Germany losing WWI put an end to that. 

To Peter: Thanks, I hadn't noticed that there was another morganaut in my descent of the House of Baden. Eduard Fortunatus sounds a bit like an M. R. James character, if you ask me.

TO BE CONTINUED...
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #22 
Dynasty №10: House of Hesse (Part Two)

As the concept of agnatic primogeniture needed some time to get properly ingrained into the succession laws of the various German Houses, almost all of them had several branches.

For instance, when Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse, died in 1567, his territory was split between four of his dynastic sons: Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Marburg, Hesse-Rheinfels and Hesse-Darmstadt.

This descent is about the most junior of them and begins with his youngest son. 

I. House of Hesse-Darmstadt:
  1. George I, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1547 - 1596), father of...
  2. Louis V, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1577 - 1626), father of...
  3. George II, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1605 - 1661), father of...
  4. Louis VI, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1630 - 1678), father of...
  5. Louis VII, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1658 - 1678), half-brother of...
  6. Ernest Louis, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1667 - 1739), father of...
  7. Louis VIII, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1691 - 1768), father of...
  8. Louis IX, Landgrave of Hesse-Darmstadt (1719 - 1790), father of...
  9. Louis I, Grand Duke of Hesse (1753 - 1830), father of...
  10. Louis II, Grand Duke of Hesse (1777 - 1848), father of...
  11. Louis III, Grand Duke of Hesse (1806 - 1877), uncle of...
  12. Louis IV, Grand Duke of Hesse (1837 - 1892), father of...
  13. Ernest Louis, Grand Duke of Hesse (1868 - 1937), father of...
  14. Georg Donatus, Hereditary Grand Duke of Hesse (1906 - 1937), brother of...
  15. Louis, Prince of Hesse and by Rhine (1908 - 1968), third cousin of...

II. House of Mountbatten [Descended from Louis II, Grand Duke of Hesse, through his son, Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine]:
  1. David Mountbatten, 3rd Marquess of Milford Haven (1919 - 1970), father of...
  2. George Mountbatten, 4th Marquess of Milford Haven (b. 1961).
Of course, the marriage between Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine (1823 - 1888) and Julia, Princess of Battenberg, (1825 - 1895) was morganatic. As such, when I-15 died, he was succeeded by Landgrave Moritz (1926 - 2013), whom he had adopted in 1960. 

It appears that the members of the House of Hesse belong to the following Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b-L21 > FGC5494. I think this should be taken with a grain of salt for the following reasons:
1) Brad Michael Little is supposedly an illegitimate descendant of Prince Louis of Battenberg (1854 - 1921) through his maternal grandfather. That's the implication I get - I haven't read his book, so I can't be certain of his findings.
2) It is practically taken for granted that Grand Duke Louis II of Hesse and by Rhine was not the biological father of Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine. Genealogics doesn't even bother with such a relationship between the two: the father is shown as August von Senarclens de Grancy (1794 - 1871). I can certainly see a resemblance.

I may briefly return to the House of Hesse in the future. It's certainly an interesting one.
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