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Peter

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Reply with quote  #46 
Thanks, and thanks also to Murtagon of course. You have covered one of the other two possibilities he mentions, the remaining one being the MPP heir of Franz Joseph I of Austria. Which individual is first covered in post #21, and I.10 there is the key to the claim. This is Peter III of Aragón, who married Constance of Sicily, daughter of Manfred of the same, who usurped the throne from his tragic nephew Conradin. Charles I of Sicily, later of Naples, in turn usurped Manfred's throne and slew him, later murdering Conradin, who had no children and thus Manfred's were now the proper heirs. These were several, but all but Constance, already married out of the realm, were taken by the usurping Charles and kept captive in grim conditions. All but Constance also died childless, and when Charles's rule become unbearable to them the Sicilians called on Peter III as husband of their rightful Queen to come to their relief. Which he did, establishing Aragonese rule over the island and leaving Charles and his successors the mainland only.

Unlike Tancred who was indubitably illegitimate Manfred claimed to be the legitimate son of Frederick II and was so acknowledged by his father. Not however by the Church, which corrupt as it was in all its doings was still the recognised and sole authority in such matters, so the representation shown by Murtagon must be considered the soundest of the three. The other two are however representations of people who did reign as King of Sicily and in Manfred's case, or rather his child's, had some sort of claim to be senior genealogical heir of all those preceding, Tancred aside. Post #21.I traces the claim all the way from Peter III and the unshown Constance to the present-day representative.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #47 
Thank you both for your contributions to the thread!

Windemere, I have also seen the descent you have provided, but there's something that bothers me. You note that it's a male-preference claim that leads to the Duke of Calabria. OK, but the moment I saw the name of the unlucky (?) Hugh of Brienne, I began to wonder how could he possibly lead to Prince Pedro, considering that the former's heir-general is widely assumed to be Charles-Antoine Lamoral of Ligne-La Trémoïlle. Then I noticed that you took Louis, Count of Enghien and Brienne, as the heir of his nephew Walter IV, Count of Enghien and Brienne. According to Wikipedia, that was by proximity of blood. Although I do admit that the order of the children may not be known with absolute certainty, it does seem that there was a John (Jean) between Sohier and Louis. It is from this John that Mary of Enghien's line derives the various claims.

Peter, you note another descent which I am now aware of, but had not listed for Prince Guillaume, as I hadn't actually known about it at the time. It happens! [wink]
Incidentally, all those threads about Jerusalem and the late Infanta Alicia, etc. have proven very useful to me in this exercise. So I can't thank you enough for your (unintentional?) help!
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #48 
Thanks, Peter  for your previous informative post concerning the Sicilian succession.

Murtagon, after I'd compiled and posted the descent of Pedro of Calabria from King Roger II of Sicily, I checked it against your previous posted descent for Charles Antoine Lamoral of Ligne-La Tremoille, and I noticed that it diverged away from your lineage after Count Walter IV of Enghien. I'd noticed that Count Louis of Enghien was next heir by proximity of blood, but could find no closer relatives than he, so I went with him. However, afterwards I checked on Genealogics, and found that the Genealogics male-preference descent actually seems to diverge away from the Wikipedia one with the descendants of Isabella, the mother of Count Sohier of Brienne. I traced that descent on Genealogics down to the present, and it leads through several different noble families of Italian and Spanish descent. However, I didn't have time to copy it down. At some point in the future when there's more time, I'll do so, and post it.

I'm sure that your posted male-preference descent for Charles Antoine Lamoral is more accurate than mine for Pedro of Calabria. Wikipedia is very helpful, but often excludes obscure descendants who are of minor historical imortance, but who are nevertheless of great importance genealogically. Also, I was very interested in the roles that some of these people played in the history of Sicily, some of which was set forth in Peter's post above. Although I had a basic knowledge of Sicily's early history under the Norman de Hauteville kings, and their displacement by the Hohenstaufens, and then the later displacement of the Hohenstaufens by the Capetian Angevins, it was still fascinating to read about it.  And so I remained with Wikipedia, rather than going initially to Genealogics.   It was interesting for me to compile Pedro of Calabria's  descent from Roger II, and as far as I know, it's accurate genealogically, but it oughtn't to be considered an authentic male-preference descent for Sicily.

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Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #49 
Well, Windemere, for me to claim that what I'm doing is original research would be an insult to any professional genealogist. [wink] I generally use Wikipedia (sometimes also in other languages) and also Genealogics; maybe even Miroslav Marek's genealogical website, as well.

I have based Charles-Antoine Lamoral's claim on two major things:
1) A thread on this forum by Guy Stair Sainty, who I think is personally involved with such matters - Here

2) The following Wikipedia article about Henri de La Trémoille - Here (under Ancestry and claims).

I've also seen how Peter has referred to these claims before, such as this one (post #3): Here.

All of these have led me to believe that the Brienne claim rests with the line of Charles-Antoine Lamoral. Therefore, I didn't give up when the Polish line ended in 1672 and simply went back for several generations.

Finally, as far as I can see the article about Isabella, Countess of Brienne, shows a brother between Sohier and Louis, from whom legitimate descent survives. He had at least two children; Mary of Enghien was a daughter of his.

I admit that there is one rather large problem with my descents: not all links are shown. At the moment, the only way I can think of that could solve it, is through some sort of a drawing or a chart, but I'm still unsure how to proceed here.

Anyway, I'm glad that I'm not the only person here that's involved in these genealogical tracings. Again, thank you and Peter, too!
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #50 
Heir №3: Prince Guillaume zu Windisch-Graetz (b. 1950) [Part Four]


V. Kingdom of Sicily:

  1. Manfred, King of Sicily (1232 - 1266), father of...
  2. Federico of Sicily (1259/61 - c. 1312), brother of...
  3. Enrico of Sicily (1260/4 - 1318), half-uncle of...
  4. James II of Aragon (1267 - 1327), same as I-12.


VI. Kingdom of Poland & Grand Duchy of Lithuania, etc.:

  1. Sigismund I the Old (1467 - 1548), father of...
  2. Sigismund II Augustus (1520 - 1572), half-brother of...
  3. Hedwig Jagiellon, Electress of Brandenburg (1513 - 1573), mother of...
  4. Elisabeth Magdalena (1537 - 1595), sister of...
  5. Hedwig of Brandenburg, Duchess of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (1540 - 1602), mother of...
  6. Henry Julius, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1564 - 1613), father of...
  7. Frederick Ulrich, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1591 - 1634), half-uncle of...
  8. Dorothea of Anhalt-Zerbst (1607 - 1634), mother of...
  9. Rudolph Augustus, Duke of Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel (1627 - 1704), father of...
  10. Dorothea of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (1653 - 1722), mother of...
  11. Dorothea of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön (1692 - 1765), second cousin once removed of...
  12. Maria Theresa (1717 - 1780), mother of...
  13. Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor (1741 - 1790), same as I-31.


VII. Kingdom of Sicily:

  1. Frederick III of Sicily (1272 - 1337), father of...
  2. Peter II of Sicily (1304 - 1342), father of...
  3. Louis, King of Sicily (1338 - 1355), brother of...
  4. Frederick the Simple (1341 - 1377), father of...
  5. Maria, Queen of Sicily (1363 - 1401), first cousin once removed of...
  6. Joanna of Aragon, Countess of Foix (1375 - 1407), same as I-17.


VIII. Grand Duchy of Tuscany (genealogical representation only):

  1. Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (1519 - 1574), father of...
  2. Francesco I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (1541 - 1587), father of...
  3. Eleanor de' Medici (1567 - 1611), mother of...
  4. Francesco IV Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua (1586 - 1612), same as II-17.

As Peter had recently pointed out, Peter III of Aragon, his namesake, had been married to Constance II of Sicily (c. 1249 - 1302), daughter of Manfred of Sicily. Three of their sons became monarchs: Alfonso III was King of Aragon; James II was mainly also King of Aragon; Frederick III was King of Sicily. 

As it happens, the lines of the latter two brothers converged in 1401. However, the Kingdom of Aragon (and, by extension, Sicily) used something resembling Semi-Salic succession. Incidentally, this was part of the reason why the Aragonese were generally very supportive of the Habsburg pretender during the War of the Spanish Succession in the early 18th century.

Apart from a curious Polish-Lithuanian representation, I have also shown a brief Medici line from Tuscany. These ones were actual monarchs, as I understand it. It seems that their predecessors' heir-general is the Duke of Bavaria. I'm planning on showing that descent eventually.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #51 
Heir №11: Prince Andrew Romanov (b. 1923)

A male-line descendant of the Imperial House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov, this man is assumed by some to have been the de jure Emperor of All Russia since the very end of 2016.

Prince Andrew appears to be the cognatic senior representative of the Romanov rulers. Let us see how.


I. Tsardom of Russia/Russian Empire:

  1. Michael of Russia (1596 - 1645), father of...
  2. Alexis of Russia (1629 - 1676), father of...
  3. Feodor III of Russia (1661 - 1682), brother of...
  4. Ivan V of Russia (1666 - 1696), father of...
  5. Tsarevna Catherine Ivanovna of Russia (1691 - 1733), mother of...
  6. Anna Leopoldovna (1718 - 1746), mother of...
  7. Ivan VI of Russia (1740 - 1764), brother of...
  8. Peter Antonovich of Brunswick (1745 - 1798), brother of...
  9. Catherine Antonovna of Brunswick (1741 - 1807), third cousin once removed of...
  10. Alexander I of Russia (1777 - 1825), brother of...
  11. Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia (1779 - 1831), brother of...
  12. Nicholas I of Russia (1796 - 1855), father of...
  13. Alexander II of Russia (1818 - 1881), father of...
  14. Alexander III of Russia (1845 - 1894), father of...
  15. Nicholas II of Russia (1868 - 1918), uncle of...
  16. George Mikhailovich, Count Brasov (1910 - 1931), nephew of...
  17. Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna of Russia (1875 - 1960), mother of...
  18. Prince Andrei Alexandrovich of Russia (1897 - 1981), father of...
  19. Prince Michael Andreevich of Russia (1920 - 2008), brother of...
  20. Prince Andrew Romanov (b. 1923).


II. Tsardom of Russia/Russian Empire:

  1. Peter the Great (1672 - 1725), grandfather of...
  2. Peter II of Russia (1715 - 1730), first cousin of...
  3. Peter III of Russia (1728 - 1762), father of...
  4. Paul I of Russia (1754 - 1801), father of...
  5. Alexander I of Russia (1777 - 1825), same as I-10.


III. Kingdom of Sweden, etc.:

  1. Gustav I of Sweden (1496 - 1560), father of...
  2. Eric XIV of Sweden (1533 - 1577), half-brother of...
  3. John III of Sweden (1537 - 1592), father of...
  4. Sigismund III Vasa (1566 - 1632), father of...
  5. Władysław IV Vasa (1595 - 1648), half-brother of...
  6. John II Casimir Vasa (1609 - 1672), second cousin of...
  7. Christina, Queen of Sweden (1626 - 1689), first cousin once removed of...
  8. Charles XI of Sweden (1655 - 1697), father of...
  9. Charles XII of Sweden (1682 - 1718), uncle of...
  10. Charles Frederick, Duke of Holstein-Gottorp (1700 - 1739), father of...
  11. Peter III of Russia (1728 - 1762), same as II-3.


Whenever I start making these descents, I already know who the current heir is. In this case, I had misremembered and thought it would be Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna of Russia. It was actually a cousin of hers - from the same House and also a pretender to the throne of Russia.

I admit that there are some unclear moments in the above ancestries and descents. In the first Russian representation, the first undisputed individual would be Nicholas I, even though his older brothers did not seem to have any surviving legitimate issue. For the second one, it is the unfortunate Peter III, as his mother may have been born pre-marriage. 

As for the Swedish one, it definitely begins with the unshown Charles IX of Sweden, who was the grandfather of both the somewhat enigmatic Queen Christina and her Wittelsbach cousin Charles X Gustav, with the latter being the father of Charles XI.

Something else: it is generally assumed that Emperor Nicholas II (who had already abdicated in 1917) was the first to die, when his family was massacred on 17 July 1918. However, I just couldn't bring myself to actually work out the order in which his children were murdered - that would have been extremely cynical and I believe that everyone with a heart would agree with me here.

Emperor Paul I (there hasn't been a second one so far) instituted Semi-Salic succession with dynastic marriages in 1797. Even though there are still many Romanov males, all of them are thought to be descendants of morganatic marriages. As such, Prince Andrew Romanov should not be considered de jure Emperor of All Russia.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #52 
Thank you for that lineage for Prince Andrew Romanov, who's evidently the senior agnatic, as well as senior male-preference, Romanov heir.

According to Wikipedia, Prince Andrew has 3 middle-aged sons, but only one grandchild (a daughter). And so Andrew's  male-preference line will probably continue, provided that his granddaughter produces offspring. But the agnatic line will probably diverge again. According to the Wikipedia line of Romanov agnatic descendants, after Prince Andrew and his sons, there appear to be about 6 more Romanov males from junior lines.

I think that Holstein-Gottorp is the junior line of the Oldenburg dynasty, with Schleswig-Holstein-Glucksburg being the senior.

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #53 
It seems quite certain that the Emperor died first, followed by the Tsesarevich and then Grand Duchess Tatiana. That left Grand Duchesses Olga, Maria and Anastasia. It is not as far as I can see determinable in what order these remaining victims died, the scene by then was so confused and frenzied and all three required several attempts to finish them off. But in any case I entirely agree that it would be in very poor taste to list the murdered children in an exercise like this, for the sake of the moments or minutes by which they survived their father and each other.

I had been wondering whether you would do this particular heir, and was thinking of suggesting him (not that I had worked out who it was exactly, but I knew where to look). No need anyway! I had worked out some time ago that the Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp representative would also be the representative of Gustav I of Sweden, giving a perhaps not widely known extra significance to the line. Not of course that this constitutes any sort of claim to Sweden, the succession to which was regularly irregular right up to modern times; a bit less so it is true after Gustav I's reign, but still fairly anarchic compared to most European realms. The improvement (see 1528 final two paragraphs) lay in succession prior to Gustav I having been almost completely anarchic. Finally, yes, the Glücksburg line is senior to that of Gottorp, the former proceeding from Christian III of Denmark and the latter from one of his younger brothers.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #54 
Thanks for that information. I'd read that the Grand Duchesses and their mother had concealed diamonds sewn into the lining of their dresses to take into exile, and that some of  the executioners' bullets bounced off them, making the scene even more prolonged and confused, and causing the executioners to resort to bayonets. 

Within the House of Gottorp, I think that the Romanovs are the senior line, and the  Grand Ducal line  of Oldenburg in Germany is the junior line.

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Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #55 
Thank you both, Peter and Windemere, as usual!

Windemere, yes, you are right: as Peter has pointed out, the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is also the senior line of the House of Oldenburg itself; the other one is the House of (Schleswig-) Holstein-Gottorp. At one point in time the latter had three branches (at least):

- in Russia, which was deposed in 1917, but morganatically still exists here and there;
- in Sweden, which was partially deposed in 1809 and replaced by the House of Bernadotte in 1818 - these Oldenburgs went extinct in 1877/1907;
- in Oldenburg itself, which was deposed in 1918 and exists to this very day.

Funny how the Oldenburg inheritance has travelled all that way to the most junior branch of the entire house...
Queenslander

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Reply with quote  #56 
Thank you for the surveys so far Murtagon, I have enjoyed them all. Some worthy candidates if a house finds itself without a King for a new country in any future event/calamity. It is strange how the hands of fate can be dealt upon even the most distinguished of lineage.
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Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #57 
Heir №12: Margherita, Archduchess of Austria-Este (b. 1930)


A patrilineal member of the House of Savoy-Aosta, this woman combines at least two relatively recent genealogical representations. Here they are.

I. Kingdom of the French (genealogical representation only):

  1. Louis Philippe I (1773 - 1850), grandfather of...
  2. Prince Philippe, Count of Paris (1838 - 1894), father of...
  3. Prince Philippe, Duke of Orléans (1869 - 1926), brother of...
  4. Amélie of Orléans (1865 - 1951), grandaunt of...
  5. Margherita, Archduchess of Austria-Este (b. 1930).


II. Kingdom of Spain:

  1. Amadeo I of Spain (1845 - 1890), father of...
  2. Prince Emanuele Filiberto, Duke of Aosta (1869 - 1931), father of...
  3. Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta (1898 - 1942), father of...
  4. Margherita, Archduchess of Austria-Este (b. 1930), same as I-5.

It is interesting to note how both individuals at the top of these descents became monarchs partially due to the rather infamous War of the Spanish Succession from the early 18th century.

In the case of the Kingdom of France, it is generally understood (albeit not universally) that King Felipe V of Spain (formerly Philippe, Duke of Anjou) renounced the ability to ever inherit the French throne for himself and his male-line descendants. When King Charles X of France and Navarre abdicated due to the July Revolution of 1830, he was supposed to be succeeded by his grandson, Henri, Duke of Bordeaux. Louis Philippe, Duke of Orleans and fifth cousin agnatically of the King, was intended as regent for Henri V. As it happened, Orleans was the closest in the line of succession in the French Royal Family and because the Duke of Bordeaux had been born after the death of his father, the Duke of Berry, Louis Philippe seized the throne and became King of the French.

Of course, the current Orleanist & Unionist pretender has been Prince Jean, Count of Paris, since 2019; agnatic primogeniture was once again responsible for that.

As for Spain, a semi-salic succession was arranged during the reign of King Felipe V. It was broken (due to an earlier pragmatic sanction) in 1833, when King Fernando VII died and was succeeded by his elder daughter, Queen Isabella II. The supporters of Don Carlos, her uncle, were having none of it, and after many battles and Carlist Wars, the Queen was deposed in 1868. 

An Italian cadet was elected as the new King of Spain in late 1870 - a reboot, basically. It didn't work out and he abdicated in 1873. In any case, Felipe VI has been the current legitimate King of Spain since 2014.

To Queenslander: Thank you for the kind words! Yes, I suppose this exercise could be productive in a small number of cases. We could only hope!

P.S. Peter, I am now unable to edit the first post of this thread, because it is "too old". Could anything be done about this? I just want to add the new heir to the list.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #58 
Done, let me know of any problems. I'll do the same for new heirs automatically, presuming that you want me to.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #59 
Thank you very much, Peter! Much appreciated! [smile]
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #60 
Heir №13: Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (b. 1952)

While undisputedly the Head of the Swabian branch of the House of Hohenzollern, Karl Friedrich may also be the Head of the entire House. Good arguments could be put forward for both him and his distant agnatic cousin, Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia. Fortunately, this is irrelevant for this thread.

Let us see what His Highness has got to offer.


I. Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (genealogical representation only):

  1. Ferdinand I of the Two Sicilies (1751 - 1825), father of...
  2. Francis I of the Two Sicilies (1777 - 1830), father of...
  3. Ferdinand II of the Two Sicilies (1810 - 1859), father of...
  4. Francis II of the Two Sicilies (1836 - 1894), half-uncle of...
  5. Princess Maria Teresa of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (1867 - 1909), mother of...
  6. Frederick, Prince of Hohenzollern (1891 - 1965), father of...
  7. Friedrich Wilhelm, Prince of Hohenzollern (1924 - 2010), father of...
  8. Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (b. 1952).


II. Grand Duchy of Baden (genealogical representation only):

  1. Charles Frederick, Grand Duke of Baden (1728 - 1811), grandfather of...
  2. Charles, Grand Duke of Baden (1786 - 1818), father of...
  3. Princess Louise Amelie of Baden (1811 - 1854), mother of...
  4. Carola of Vasa (1833 - 1907), first cousin once removed of...
  5. William, Prince of Hohenzollern (1864 - 1927), father of...
  6. Frederick, Prince of Hohenzollern (1891 - 1965), same as I-6.

III. County of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen/Principality of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (also heir-male):


  1. Charles II, Count of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1547 - 1606), father of...
  2. Johann, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1578 - 1638), father of...
  3. Meinrad I, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1605 - 1681), father of...
  4. Maximilian I, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1636 - 1689), father of...
  5. Meinrad II, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1673 - 1715), father of...
  6. Joseph Friedrich Ernst, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1702 - 1769), father of...
  7. Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1724 - 1785), father of...
  8. Anton Aloys, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1762 - 1831), father of...
  9. Karl, Prince of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1785 - 1853), father of...
  10. Karl Anton, Prince of Hohenzollern (1811 - 1885), father of...
  11. Leopold, Prince of Hohenzollern (1835 - 1905), father of...
  12. William, Prince of Hohenzollern (1864 - 1927), same as II-5.


The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was so named, because it consisted of the island of Sicily and the southern part of the Apennine Peninsula (also known as the Kingdom of Naples; it was formally referred to as the Kingdom of Sicily, as well). There are two current pretenders: the Dukes of Calabria and Castro. 

Again due to agnatic primogeniture, the pretender for Baden is Maximilian, Margrave of Baden. Incredibly, however, Karl Friedrich is also the heir-general for the entire line of Princes of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. By my count, that's 15 generations!

P.S. Peter, could you please add this heir to the list in the first post? Thank you in advance!
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