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Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #1 
One of the most widespread forms of monarchy is the hereditary one. For most of Europe, there have been two systems in use (at least historically): male-preference primogeniture and agnatic primogeniture. This thread is going to focus on the former.

In order to keep this post as brief as possible, I am going to assume that people reading this are already aware what this method of succession means. As of 2019, only the Kingdom of Spain and the Principality of Monaco still use it in Europe.

In this thread, I would like to present, as correctly as written records allow, those Europeans (royals, nobles and even commoners) who through the application of male-preference primogeniture are heirs-general of monarchs past. This is not supposed to mean that I support them for a given throne. It could be used, however, to see why some historical decisions were taken and how today's world could have been different, if someone else had prevailed in a war of succession.

It is important to note that morganatic (i.e., non-dynastic) marriages are completely unimportant for this exercise. Legitimacy, however, is still a murky issue in a couple of instances, but that may not be too important in the grand scheme of things.

I hope you will contribute to this thread with any tips, corrections and suggestions. [smile]

N.B. Some of the successions shown below are for monarchies, which did not practice cognatic primogeniture. This means, as an example, that the deposed Duke Roberto of Parma was not a pretender for the French Throne (also abolished at the time) after the death of his maternal uncle in 1883.
Please keep this detail in mind.

N.B. 2. Not all thrones were hereditary (de jure). While the Holy Roman Empire would not be represented, some elective monarchies may be found below (e.g. France before the reign of King Philippe II).


Current List of Heirs:

1. Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b. 1968)
    Page 1:
    I. Kingdom of Navarre
    II. Crown of Castile
    III. Crown of Aragon
    IV. Archduchy of Austria (genealogical representation only)
    V. Kingdom of Portugal
    VI. Kingdom of the West Franks/Kingdom of France (genealogical representation only)
    VII. Kingdom of France, etc. (genealogical representation only)
    VIII. Kingdom of England, etc.
    IX. Kingdoms of Castile and León
    X. Duchy of Lorraine (directly before French incorporation)
    Page 2:
    XI. Latin Empire of Constantinople, etc.
    XII. Duchy of Austria (genealogical representation only)
    XIII. Duchy of Austria/Archduchy of Austria (genealogical representation only)
    Page 3: 
    XIV. Duchy of Parma (genealogical representation only)
    XV. Kingdom of Scotland (possibly heir-general)

2. Franz, Duke of Bavaria (b. 1933)
    Page 2:
    I. Kingdom of England
    II. Kingdom of Scotland
    III. Kingdom of France (genealogical representation only)
    IV. Kingdom of Bavaria (also heir-male)
    V. Duchy of Modena (genealogical representation only)
    Page 3:
    VI. Duchy of Brittany
    VII. Duchy of Savoy (genealogical representation only)

3. Prince Guillaume zu Windisch-Graetz (b. 1950)
    Page 2
    I. Kingdom of Aragon
    II. Kingdom of Majorca
    III. Duchy of Lorraine
    IV. Kingdom of Belgium (genealogical representation only)
    Page 4:
    V. Kingdom of Sicily
    VI. Kingdom of Poland & Grand Duchy of Lithuania, etc.
    VII. Kingdom of Sicily
    VIII. Grand Duchy of Tuscany (genealogical representation only)
 
4. Charles-Antoine Lamoral of Ligne-La Trémoïlle (b. 1946)
    Page 2:
    I. Kingdom of Cyprus
    II. Kingdom of Jerusalem (technically in Asia)

5. Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou (b. 1974)
    Page 2:
    I. Kingdom of Spain
    II. Kingdom of Portugal and the Algarves
    III. Grand Duchy of Tuscany (genealogical representation only)
    IV. Duchy of Parma (genealogical representation only)

6. Hubertus von der Osten (b. 1964)
    Page 3:
    I. Duchy of Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia/German Empire (genealogical representation only)
    II. County of Luxembourg, etc.
    III. Principality of Orange
    IV. Kingdom of Poland, etc.
    V. Duchy of Austria (genealogical representation only)

7. Patrick Guinness (b. 1956)
    Page 3:
    I. Lordship of Monaco/Principality of Monaco
    II. Lordship of Neuchâtel/County of Neuchâtel/Principality of Neuchâtel

?. Contested between Charles-Antoine Lamoral of Ligne-La Trémoïlle and Patrick Guinness
    Page 3:
    I. Kingdom of Cyprus & Kingdom of Jerusalem & Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia
    II. Kingdom of France (genealogical representation only)
    III. Kingdom of Sicily, etc.
    IV. County of Savoy/Duchy of Savoy (genealogical representation only)

8. Alexander, Margrave of Meissen (b. 1954)
    Page 3:
    I. Kingdom of Poland & Grand Duchy of Lithuania
    II. Kingdom of Portugal and the Algarves
    III. Archduchy of Austria (genealogical representation only)
    IV. County Palatine of the Rhine (genealogical representation only)

9. Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden (b. 1946)
   Page 3:
   I. Kingdom of Sweden
   II. Kingdom of Sweden
   III. Grand Duchy of Baden (genealogical representation only)

10. Elizabeth II (b. 1926)
     Page 3:
    I. Kingdom of Sicily, etc.
    II. Kingdom of Great Britain/United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
    III. Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg (genealogical representation only)
    IV. Duchy of Swabia (genealogical representation only)

11. Prince Andrew Romanov (b. 1923)
     Page 4:
     I. Tsardom of Russia/Russian Empire
     II. Tsardom of Russia/Russian Empire
     III. Kingdom of Sweden, etc.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #2 
I'll be interested to see what you do on the thread. I would point out, however, that besides male-preference and agnatic primogeniture there is also semi-Salic succession, which was the law of the Russian Empire for example. While Monaco and Spain do both still use male-preference primogeniture as you say, in Spain's case this is simply because Queen Letizia is unlikely at her present age to bear a son to supplant Infanta Leonor. And in view of the immense complexity of altering the Spanish constitution to introduce equal primogeniture, which would then make no difference whatsoever, things have been left as they are. Without doubt, were it actually to make a difference the constitution would be changed.

Liechtenstein of course continues to use agnatic primogeniture, while the other seven existing monarchies have all switched to the equal version. Monaco perhaps will make an eighth sometime in the future, though Albert II brusquely dismissed any suggestion that his elder-born daughter should succeed in place of his son, born after his twin sister. Hans-Adam II was equally brusque in dismissing any alteration to Liechtenstein's male-only succession. Finally, while I accept that morganatic marriage makes no difference to who is cognatically heir of line, it can do so to who is lawful successor.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #3 
Haha, I knew that you would be interested in my idea! You are actually one of the people who inspired me to do this in the first place.
You are obviously right on all points. I can't do anything else at the moment, because of work,so I'll probably start with the obvious heir in the evening.

I think you know which pretender that is: his grandma was rather long-lived 😉
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #4 
Heir №1: Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b. 1968)

He is the only son of Infante Carlos, Duke of Calabria, and Princess Anne, Dowager Duchess of Calabria. Since 2015, he has been one of the two claimants to the former throne of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Through his paternal grandmother, however, the Duke of Calabria is able to claim the representation of a number of royal and noble individuals.

I. Kingdom of Navarre:

  1. García Ramírez of Navarre (c. 1112 - 1150), father of...
  2. Sancho VI of Navarre (1132 - 1194), father of...
  3. Sancho VII of Navarre (c. 1157 - 1234), uncle of...
  4. Theobald I of Navarre (1201 - 1253), father of...
  5. Theobald II of Navarre (c. 1239 - 1270), brother of...
  6. Henry I of Navarre (c. 1244 - 1274), father of...
  7. Joan I of Navarre (1273 - 1305), mother of...
  8. Louis X of France (1289 - 1316), father of...
  9. John I of France (1316), half-brother of...
  10. Joan II of Navarre (1312 - 1349), mother of...
  11. Charles II of Navarre (1332 - 1387), father of...
  12. Charles III of Navarre (1361 - 1425), father of...
  13. Blanche I of Navarre (1387 - 1441), mother of...
  14. Charles, Prince of Viana (1421 - 1461), brother of...
  15. Blanche II of Navarre (1424 - 1464), sister of...
  16. Eleanor of Navarre (1426 - 1479), grandmother of...
  17. Francis Phoebus of Navarre (1467 - 1483), brother of...
  18. Catherine of Navarre (1468 - 1517), mother of...
  19. Henry II of Navarre (1503 - 1555), father of...
  20. Joan III of Navarre (1528 - 1572), mother of...
  21. Henry IV of France (1553 - 1610), father of...
  22. Louis XIII of France (1601 - 1643), father of...
  23. Louis XIV of France (1638 - 1715), great-grandfather of...
  24. Louis XV of France (1710 - 1774), grandfather of...
  25. Louis XVI of France (1754 - 1793), father of...
  26. Louis XVII of France (1785 - 1795), brother of...
  27. Marie Thérèse of France (1778 - 1851), first cousin once removed of...
  28. Henri, Count of Chambord (1820 - 1883), uncle of...
  29. Robert I, Duke of Parma (1848 - 1907), father of...
  30. Henry, Duke of Parma (1873 - 1939), brother of...
  31. Joseph, Duke of Parma (1875 - 1950), brother of...
  32. Elias, Duke of Parma (1880 - 1959), father of...
  33. Robert Hugo, Duke of Parma (1909 - 1974), brother of...
  34. Elisabetta of Bourbon-Parma (1904 - 1983), sister of...
  35. Maria Francesca of Bourbon-Parma (1906 - 1994), sister of...
  36. Infanta Alicia, Duchess of Calabria (1917 - 2017), grandmother of...
  37. Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b.1968).
TO BE CONTINUED...
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #5 
Heir №1: Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b. 1968) [Part Two]


II. Crown of Castile:

  1. Henry II of Castile (1334 - 1379), father of...
  2. John I of Castile (1358 - 1390), father of...
  3. Henry III of Castile (1379 - 1406), father of...
  4. John II of Castile (1405 - 1454), father of...
  5. Henry IV of Castile (1425 - 1474), father of...
  6. Joanna la Beltraneja (1462 - 1530), first cousin of...
  7. Joanna of Castile (1479 - 1555), mother of...
  8. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500 - 1558), father of...
  9. Philip II of Spain (1527 - 1598), father of...
  10. Philip III of Spain (1578 - 1621), father of...
  11. Philip IV of Spain (1605 - 1665), father of...
  12. Charles II of Spain (1661 - 1700), half-uncle of...
  13. Louis, Grand Dauphin (1661 - 1711), father of...
  14. Louis, Duke of Burgundy (1682 - 1712), father of...
  15. Louis, Duke of Brittany (1707 - 1712), brother of...
  16. Louis XV of France (1710 - 1774), same as I-24.


III. Crown of Aragon:

  1. Ferdinand I of Aragon (1380 - 1416), father of...
  2. Alfonso V of Aragon (1396 - 1458), brother of...
  3. John II of Aragon (1398 - 1479), father of...
  4. Ferdinand II of Aragon (1452 - 1516), father of...
  5. Joanna of Castile (1479 - 1555), same as II-7.


IV. Archduchy of Austria (genealogical representation only):


  1. Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor (1503 - 1564), father of...
  2. Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor (1527 - 1576), father of...
  3. Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor (1552 - 1612), brother of...
  4. Matthias, Holy Roman Emperor (1557 - 1619), brother of...
  5. Albert VII, Archduke of Austria (1559 - 1621), granduncle of...
  6. Philip IV of Spain (1605 - 1665), same as II-11.

TO BE CONTINUED...
Peter

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Reply with quote  #6 

I have no quarrel with your first three genealogies, the starting points are well-chosen, the successions correct and these were all monarchies inherited through male-preference primogeniture, if not always consistently so (particularly in Aragón’s case). The only observation I have is that while I.20 was indeed named Jeanne d’Albret, she was also Joan (Jeanne) III of Navarre, and it would seem more consistent to call her so.

As an aside, this was as far as I can see the highest numbering ever attained by a regnant Queen, equalling Juana I of Spain who was also Giovanna III of Naples. It is true that the famous Cleopatra was Cleopatra VII of Egypt, but she was not so known in her time, or for well more than a thousand years afterwards; the numbering is an anachronistic device employed for the convenience of historians.

Moving on, I found IV more problematic. Austrian succession was never by male preference primogeniture but was always agnatic, with the obvious exception of Maria Theresia, albeit moderated by family treaties which might assign the succession of parts or the whole to junior lines. This was in fact how IV.1 obtained the territory, eventually travelling to his grandson IV.5. But it did not go from him to IV.6, but rather on 5’s renunciation to his cousin the Emperor Ferdinand II.

Ferdinand II’s cognatic heir of line is as it happens Alexander de Afif, the same that claims the Saxon succession. The cognatic heir of IV.1’s older brother the Emperor Karl V is indeed Pedro, Duke of Calabria, through IV.6 as shown. But Karl V was not himself the senior cognatic heir of the original Archdukes of Austria. He was heir of the junior Leopoldine line from Albert II, Duke of Austria (the Archduke title was invented by Rudolf IV in the next generation).

The senior Albertine line (Albert II’s first two sons, Rudolf IV and Frederick III were both childless, the territories then being divided between the next brother Albert III and the youngest Leopold III) is represented today by one Hubertus von der Osten, the representation having travelled previously through the line of Hohenzollern Electors of Brandenburg, Kings in/of Prussia and ultimately German Emperors.

So in summary there are three ways of looking at who is cognatic representative of the Austrian Archdukes, bearing in mind always that this is completely artificial as the system never applied to the territory. The Duke of Calabria is representative of the middle way only, but not by the line shown but rather by that from II.8 to II.11.

Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #7 
I generally agree with your points. Looking at what I had written in the first post, it does seem that I imply that MPP should be used for every succession ever. That is obviously not the case. Austria (and several others in the future) was added, because the Duke of Calabria is simply the lineal heir by MPP of HRE Ferdinand I. I didn't mean to say that His Highness should take over Austria just because of that - there are obviously much better candidates, with the true one (so to speak) being Archduke Karl von Habsburg, who I'm afraid is not going to be getting his own entry, as I think that he is heir only of his grandfather, Emperor-King Karl I and IV, with that being by agnatic primogeniture which is not what I am doing here. That could be another "topic", but most definitely not for today.

Incidentally, both of the men you mention are hopefully going to be included, due to their splendid ancestries.

As for the daughter of King Henry II of Navarre: you are right and Wikipedia isn't. In order to work faster, I take the names from there. For some reason, she is called that and not what you correctly called her. As such, I am going to duly ammend that to be slightly more consistent.

Thank you for the feedback, Peter! Much appreciated! :)
Peter

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Reply with quote  #8 
You're welcome, and I much appreciate your bringing some life to a long-moribund section (moribund largely because while my interest in the topic has not waned, I had pretty much run out of things to say about it). I look forward to your further efforts. While writing, I now see that the problem with IV is how it is labelled. It is really the MPP succession to the representation of Emperor Ferdinand I, rather than to the Archduchy of Austria. As the former, it is perfectly correct. This shows the line through which the representation passed.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #9 
I have added some notes to the opening post to make things more clear to anyone who isn't me.

Genealogics is a useful tool, indeed, but it also has its oddities and by that I mean mistakes. Still, it is very easy to use, so enough about that.

I have also amended Austria to show that it's just representation of a line as you have noted. Maybe I should do that every time I have an explicitly Agnatic Primogeniture monarchy, just to be safe.

I'll hopefully continue with the Duke of Calabria in the evening. I plan on moving on to another individual on Monday, just so that things stay fresh.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #10 
Heir №1: Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b. 1968) [Part Three]


V. Kingdom of Portugal:

  1. Afonso I of Portugal (c. 1109 - 1185), father of...
  2. Sancho I of Portugal (1154 - 1211), father of...
  3. Afonso II of Portugal (1185 - 1223), father of...
  4. Sancho II of Portugal (1209 - 1248), brother of...
  5. Afonso III of Portugal (1210 - 1279), father of...
  6. Denis of Portugal (1261 - 1325), father of...
  7. Afonso IV of Portugal (1291 - 1357), father of...
  8. Peter I of Portugal (1320 - 1367), father of...
  9. Ferdinand I of Portugal (1345 - 1383), father of...
  10. Beatrice of Portugal (1373 - c. 1420), second cousin twice removed of...
  11. John II of Castile (1405 - 1454), same as II-4.

VI. Kingdom of the West Franks/Kingdom of France (genealogical representation only):

  1. Robert I of France (c. 866 - 923), father of...
  2. Hugh the Great (c. 898 - 956), father of...
  3. Hugh Capet (c. 939 - 996), father of...
  4. Robert II of France (972 - 1031), father of...
  5. Henry I of France (1008 - 1060), father of...
  6. Philip I of France (c. 1052 - 1108), father of...
  7. Louis VI of France (c. 1081 - 1137), father of...
  8. Louis VII of France (1120 - 1180), father of...
  9. Philip II of France (1165 - 1223), father of...
  10. Louis VIII of France (1187 - 1226), father of...
  11. Louis IX of France (1214 - 1270), father of...
  12. Philip III of France (1245 - 1285), father of...
  13. Philip IV of France (1268 - 1314), father of...
  14. Louis X of France (1289 - 1316), same as I-8.


VII. Kingdom of France, etc. (genealogical representation only):

  1. Philip V of France (c. 1293 - 1322), father of...
  2. Joan III, Countess of Burgundy (1308 - 1347), grandmother of...
  3. Philip I, Duke of Burgundy (1346 - 1361), grandnephew of...
  4. Margaret I, Countess of Burgundy (1310 - 1382), mother of...
  5. Louis II, Count of Flanders (1330 - 1384), father of...
  6. Margaret III, Countess of Flanders (1350 - 1405), mother of...
  7. John the Fearless (1371 - 1419), father of...
  8. Philip the Good (1396 - 1467), father of...
  9. Charles the Bold (1433 - 1477), father of...
  10. Mary of Burgundy (1457 - 1482), mother of...
  11. Philip I of Castile (1478 - 1506), father of...
  12. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500 - 1558), same as II-8.


VIII. Kingdom of England, etc.:

  1. Stephen, King of England (1092/6 - 1154), father of...
  2. William I, Count of Boulogne (c. 1137 - 1159), brother of...
  3. Marie I, Countess of Boulogne (1136 - 1182), mother of...
  4. Ida, Countess of Boulogne (c. 1160 - 1216), mother of...
  5. Matilda II, Countess of Boulogne (1202 - 1259), mother of...
  6. Alberic, Count of Clermont (1222 - c. 1284), second cousin once removed of...
  7. John I, Duke of Brabant (1252/3 - 1294), father of...
  8. John II, Duke of Brabant (1275 - 1312), father of...
  9. John III, Duke of Brabant (1300 - 1355), father of...
  10. Joanna, Duchess of Brabant (1322 - 1406), grandaunt of...
  11. John the Fearless (1371 - 1419), same as VII-7.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #11 
Heir №1: Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b. 1968) [Part Four]



IX. Kingdoms of Castile and León:

  1. Sancho IV of Castile (1258 - 1295), father of...
  2. Ferdinand IV of Castile (1285 - 1312), father of...
  3. Alfonso XI of Castile (1311 - 1350), father of...
  4. Peter of Castile (1334 - 1369), father of...
  5. Constance of Castile, Duchess of Lancaster (1354 - 1394), mother of...
  6. Catherine of Lancaster (1373 - 1418), mother of...
  7. John II of Castile (1405 - 1454), same as II-4.


X. Duchy of Lorraine (directly before French incorporation):

  1. Stanisław Leszczyński (1677 - 1766), father of...
  2. Marie Leszczyńska (1703 - 1768), grandmother of...
  3. Louis XVI of France (1754 - 1793), same as I-25.


As a whole, these are the major genealogical representations held by the current Duke of Calabria. It is easily apparent that most of them are Iberian and practically all of them are (were in the case of England) Catholic. Let us briefly see whether he could be proposed as a candidate for a throne from the ones I have listed.

Castile & León, Aragon and (most of) Navarre are parts of the Kingdom of Spain. The legitimate monarch there since 2014 has been His Majesty King Felipe VI of Spain.

England is one of the countries of Great Britain, whose legitimate monarch since 1952 has been Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. To be fair, it is a very shaky claim, so no surprises here.

Portugal has been a republic since 1910, but there is a widely-accepted claimant and it is the Duke of Braganza. Pedro is not Portuguese (or born in Portugal), so any potential claims would not save him here.

France has also had a republican form of government since, say, 1870, but its use of agnatic primogeniture is practically infamous. While the Duke of Calabria is indeed a member of the House of Bourbon, which reigned in France from 1589 to 1792, 1814 to 1815 and 1815 to 1848, he is in no way a realistic candidate for that throne.

As for Austria, it has also been a republic since 1918. It employs agnatic primogeniture (but Semi-Salic), which ruins any chance of this particular Royal.

On this rather glum note ends my review of the major genealogical representations of Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria. Hopefully, I would return to him eventually, as he also has some minor (and not so minor) lines that he is heir of.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murtagon
Heir №1: Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria (b. 1968) [Part Three]


V. Kingdom of Portugal:

  1. Afonso I of Portugal (c. 1109 - 1185), father of...
  2. Sancho I of Portugal (1154 - 1211), father of...
  3. Afonso II of Portugal (1185 - 1223), father of...
  4. Sancho II of Portugal (1209 - 1248), brother of...
  5. Afonso III of Portugal (1210 - 1279), father of...
  6. Denis of Portugal (1261 - 1325), father of...
  7. Afonso IV of Portugal (1291 - 1357), father of...
  8. Peter I of Portugal (1320 - 1367), father of...
  9. Ferdinand I of Portugal (1345 - 1383), father of...
  10. Beatrice of Portugal (1373 - c. 1420), second cousin twice removed of...
  11. John II of Castile (1405 - 1454), same as II-4.

VI. Kingdom of the West Franks/Kingdom of France (genealogical representation only):

  1. Robert I of France (c. 866 - 923), father of...
  2. Hugh the Great (c. 898 - 956), father of...
  3. Hugh Capet (c. 939 - 996), father of...
  4. Robert II of France (972 - 1031), father of...
  5. Henry I of France (1008 - 1060), father of...
  6. Philip I of France (c. 1052 - 1108), father of...
  7. Louis VI of France (c. 1081 - 1137), father of...
  8. Louis VII of France (1120 - 1180), father of...
  9. Philip II of France (1165 - 1223), father of...
  10. Louis VIII of France (1187 - 1226), father of...
  11. Louis IX of France (1214 - 1270), father of...
  12. Philip III of France (1245 - 1285), father of...
  13. Philip IV of France (1268 - 1314), father of...
  14. Louis X of France (1289 - 1316), same as I-8.


VII. Kingdom of France, etc. (genealogical representation only):

  1. Philip V of France (c. 1293 - 1322), father of...
  2. Joan III, Countess of Burgundy (1308 - 1347), grandmother of...
  3. Philip I, Duke of Burgundy (1346 - 1361), grandnephew of...
  4. Margaret I, Countess of Burgundy (1310 - 1382), mother of...
  5. Louis II, Count of Flanders (1330 - 1384), father of...
  6. Margaret III, Countess of Flanders (1350 - 1405), mother of...
  7. John the Fearless (1371 - 1419), father of...
  8. Philip the Good (1396 - 1467), father of...
  9. Charles the Bold (1433 - 1477), father of...
  10. Mary of Burgundy (1457 - 1482), mother of...
  11. Philip I of Castile (1478 - 1506), father of...
  12. Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (1500 - 1558), same as II-8.


VIII. Kingdom of England, etc.:

  1. Stephen, King of England (1092/6 - 1154), father of...
  2. William I, Count of Boulogne (c. 1137 - 1159), brother of...
  3. Marie I, Countess of Boulogne (1136 - 1182), mother of...
  4. Ida, Countess of Boulogne (c. 1160 - 1216), mother of...
  5. Matilda II, Countess of Boulogne (1202 - 1259), mother of...
  6. Alberic, Count of Clermont (1222 - c. 1284), second cousin once removed of...
  7. John I, Duke of Brabant (1252/3 - 1294), father of...
  8. John II, Duke of Brabant (1275 - 1312), father of...
  9. John III, Duke of Brabant (1300 - 1355), father of...
  10. Joanna, Duchess of Brabant (1322 - 1406), grandaunt of...
  11. John the Fearless (1371 - 1419), same as VII-7.
Thanks for the previous interesting posts. Alberic, Count of Clermont (son of Matilda II, suo jure Countess of Boulogne) is quite an interesting genealogical character. (Oddly, he seems to be  mentioned only in Wikipedia, and not on Genealogics). He seems to be somewhat of an historical enigma. As shown above, he was the senior heir of King Stephen of England. Alberic's father was Philippe Hurepel, jure uxoris Count of Boulogne,  who was a younger son of King Philippe II of France and of Agnes of Merania. (The marriage of King Philippe II and Agnes was considered irregular, as Ingeborg of Denmark, the king's previous wife, was still claiming to be queen). And so Alberic was an agnatic Capetian.

According to Wikipedia,  for reasons unknown, Alberic renounced his claim to Boulogne, and moved to England.  Just guessing, but according to the timeframe, that would likely have been during the reign of King Henry III. He is believed to have died in 1284. After that, Alberic seems to disappear from the historical record. Boulogne was inherited by the Auvergne family, who also had a descent from King Stephen through a younger granddaughter.



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Peter

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Reply with quote  #13 
As a nod to the thread before I hare off on a chase of my own, one of the lines Murtagon refers to in his last paragraph above will I expect be the representation of the Scottish House of Dunkeld (reigned from Duncan I through Alexander III, skipping Macbeth and Lulach). I have been thinking about Scottish succession in this and other contexts, and came across this very interesting online paper published by the University of Stirling. It is concerned with the evolution of Scottish succession practices through and leading up to the crisis of 1286, and then to the succession of Robert II, who appears to have been the first monarch to produce actual legislation on the question. Paradoxically, this was for pure agnatic succession, that is succession only by and through males, yet was not overturned but fulfilled at the accession of Mary I.

This is because the law provided that in the event of all male lines becoming extinct succession should be by 'the true and lawful heirs of the royal blood and kin'. James V was the last male who could claim a direct and legitimate male line from Robert II, and who but his daughter and only child could be true and lawful heir? A further relevance, admittedly tangential, of this to the thread is that it is a particularly clear instance of a frequent case: succession appearing to be by MPP when in fact no such thing was happening.

Another and even more tangential relevance is that a rather fanciful Jacobite claim can be constructed for the Duke of Calabria, which Murtagon perhaps also intends to cover in due course. The whole Jacobite claim, whether you favour the Duke of Bavaria or (an extreme minority of an extreme minority) his Calabrian cousin, is presumably based on MPP from William the Conqueror on the one hand and Robert the Bruce on the other. But MPP was not the principle on which either succeeded or was succeeded to; in England there is not even any appearance of that and in Scotland, as the paper shows, there was the appearance but not the substance.

An awful lot of things in royal succession and royal succession law look simple but upon closer examination turn out to be fiendishly complex and full of doubts and ambiguities, and English and Scottish succession are both prime instances of that. Another instance is here, a thread on which the Dunkeld and also Wessex representation of the Calabrian line is discussed, and unexpected doubt and ambiguity introduced by post #6. Anyway, end of digression, and I look forward to Murtagon introducing his next claimant whenever he's ready.
Murtagon

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Reply with quote  #14 
Thank you both for your contributions to this thread!

Windemere, I am not at all surprised that you mention this person in particular. When I was following the various lines and branches of the Capetians some time ago, I noticed him and his rather bizarre disappearance from history and decided to google him to find out more about the circumstances. In a forum (I think), someone asked about Alberic and the answer was that he never existed, that is, there was a forgery of some sort. Why, I have no idea. You'd better take all of this with a grain of salt though.

Peter, I have read that the Scottish succession of the Stewarts was Semi-Salic. This would logically mean either of two things:
1) When Mary became Queen of Scots, she did so because there were no other legitimate agnatic lines from King Robert II...

OR

2) When Mary became Queen of Scots, she did so because baby monarchs lead to regencies and that is good for the regent. In other words, there were legitimate males and they were bypassed. Weren't the Castle Stewarts legitimate?

As for the other British successions you mention: wait and see.

In a few hours, I should start with the next, also obvious heir. Until then!
Peter

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Reply with quote  #15 
It definitely wasn't semi-Salic. And I don't think your explanation 2) applies either. I'm not sure whom you mean by the Castle Stewarts, but anyway while there were and are legitimate Stewart lines none of them are from Robert II, which was the requirement in the legislation. This actually specifically named all his sons in turn; the line had to be from one of them. There also were and are lines from his sons, for example from the infamous Alexander, the 'Wolf of Badenoch'. But none legitimate now, and as far as I can see none legitimate then. Mary I's accession seems to me to have been due to her father's express wish and also because she was the proper heir under the then existing succession law.
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