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kasiac

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Reply with quote  #1 
I have a question for you to answer - before we restore all monarchies in Germany, we have to come up with strategies how to restore former monarchical states back to their original places before 1918. How can we accomplish that? Any suggestions? Kingdoms of Saxony, Bavaria, and Wurttemberg and the Grand Dukedoms of Hesse and Baden can fit well in their modern-day borders (Baden and Wurttemberg have to separate). As for Kingdom of Prussia, its territories today comprise of the eastern part of Poland. If Poland gives away its eastern part back to Germany, how it can revert to its original form before World War II?
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #2 
I doubt very much that anyone could possibly manage to restore pre-war territories to Germany and Poland.  It would be a nest of wasps, and would not help further the cause of Monarchy.  You would also somehow need to compel Russia to give back Kaliningrad (Konigsburg) to Prussia which is unlikely to happen.  Your best bet would be to restore the monarchy in Germany and it's states along the lines of present borders, and any dispossessed families would be regarded as mediatized.
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Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
kasiac

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Reply with quote  #3 
True, if Prussia is not restored, then how Georg Friedrich will change his title when he becomes the Kaiser? It would be better if he changes his title for "King of Germany" or keep the "Emperor" title, just like the monarch in Japan. I would take Baden, Wurttemberg, Hesse, Bavaria, and Saxony as the easiest ones to start with. Hanover is the trickiest one to start with.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #4 
The present Germany may not include any part of the original Prussia, but it does include substantial parts of the post-Napoleonic kingdom of Prussia, Brandenburg plus the numerous other bits and pieces acquired by the Hohenzollerns over the years. I don't see any problem with the title. And anyway, monarchs have never seen any problem with another title on the roll. regardless of whether they actually ruled the territory or not, so long as there was some sort of historical claim to it. Which in this case is unquestionable.
kasiac

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Reply with quote  #5 
You mean that Georg Friedrich would retain the "Emperor" title, just like Akihito after the collapse of Empire of Japan following the Second World War, Peter? Is what you mean?
Ethiomonarchist

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Reply with quote  #6 
The Emperors of my native Ethiopia had no problem using rather extensive titles such as "King of Zion", "King of Senar and all the Nubias", "King of the Arabs" etc.  Several European dynastys have claimed the title "King of Jerusalem" and up to King George III, Kings of England also claimed to be Kings of France.  Georg Friedrich should have no issue calling himself King of Prussia as well as German Emperor as he at least would have actual posession of those territories (or at least parts of them) if he was to be restored.
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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
kasiac

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Reply with quote  #7 
We'll see about that - what is the most important priority now - is to educate the Germans on the history of monarchy and the prospect of a restoration, then we'll worry about territorial and titles issues later on. How to arrange that. For now, I choose the easiest monarchies to support in Germany - Baden, Wurttemberg, Bavaria, Saxony, and Hesse - and of course, the Emperor of Germany position itself.

I have 2 Grand Dukes, 3 Kings, and 1 Emperor to support for now:

Maximilian, Margrave of Baden

Moritz, Landgrave of Hesse

Carl, Duke of Wurttemberg

Prince Ruediger of Saxony or Alexander, Margrave of Meissen

Franz, Duke of Bavaria

Georg Friedrich, Prince of Prussia

18th_Brumaire

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Reply with quote  #8 
IMHO, a German restoration of the Hohenzollerns isn't likely with political consciousness where it is - that is to say, in the gutter. The old German imperial past is far too mixed in with the Nazi legacy - without any good reason, it should be said. It's sad, honestly, because reading back it really does feel like there were so many missed opportunities. Almost half of the Bavarian parliament were monarchists in the 1950s. The assassins who tried to take Hitler's life aimed to restore the monarchy under a regency. The further and further away we get from the date of the abolition of monarchies, the harder it gets, for many different reasons. The claimants gradually becoming far less visible is perhaps the most important one, but also, the longer a republic lasts the more likely it is to be seen as legitimate.
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #9 
Yes, I was envisaging German Emperor (not Emperor of Germany, that is not the correct title) and King of Prussia. However if Germany were to become a unitary monarchy then King of Germany is an ancient if unofficial title, the official style of those called that actually being King of the Romans. Hesse is a little complicated. The Landgrave of Hesse is the heir to the Grand Dukes of Hesse and by Rhine, bur also to the Electors of Hesse, which is the senior title. If restored only to the Grand Duchy then that would be the title, but if also to the territories of the former Electorate then Grand Duke of Hesse, Elector of Hesse and King of Hesse would all be possible. As for Saxony, let's not go there. Ethiomonarchist's point is well-made; unfortunately, so is 18th Brumaire's.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #10 
This is an interesting topic to envision. I would also  think that it would be best to retain the current boundaries for administrative and political purposes, and to try to fit the old royal or noble geographical entities into them.

The modern state of Baden-Wurttemberg wouldn't necessarily have to be split. Old Wurttemberg was a kingdom, while old Baden was a Grand Duchy, and the modern state encompasses the territory of both. They were sovereign until incorporated into the German Empire. Modern Baden-Wurttemberg also encompasses the territory of the old county/principality of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, and probably also other minor mediatized entities. Not sure, but I think that the old geographic term "Swabia" was roughly equivalent to the modern state of Baden-Wurttemberg. It would be nice to see this old traditional term resurrected, with Wurttemberg, Baden, Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, etc. comprising districts or counties within the state/kingdom.

Modern Saxony is roughly equivalent to the old Kingdom of  (Albertine) Saxony.

Modern Thuringia is equivalent to the old   (Ernestine) Saxon Duchies (including Saxe-Weimar & Eisenstadt, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, and Saxe-Meiningen), except that in 1920 Coburg was transferred to Bavaria.

Modern Anhalt (Sachsen-Anhalt) is somewhat equivalent to the old principality of Anhalt, though it  also includes parts of old Saxony. The present princely family of Anhalt (the Ascanians) is  close to extinction in the senior agnatic line, though two cadet lines (one  morganatic, the other originally illegitimate) continue to flourish. The senior line, if it wished, might also be able to resort to semi-salic succession.

The modern German state of Neidersachsen  encompasses the old Kingdom of Hannover, the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg, and very likely other minor entities as well.

Modern Schleswig-Holstein is equivalent to the old Duchies of Schleswig and Holstein, which were later incorporated into the Kingdom of Prussia.

Modern Bavaria is roughly equivalent to the old Kingdom of Bavaria.

Modern Mecklenburg is equivalent to the old Grand Duchies of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz, with only one Grand Ducal family still extant.


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kasiac

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Reply with quote  #11 

So what is your proposal, Windmere, how we can give back the thrones to the German royals who still retain their traditional and historical titles even the former territories that their ancestors reigned over are now gone? How we can incorporate:

 

Into this?

 That's your opinion, Windmere, but I still would like for Baden and Wurttemberg to split.

ReinoTion

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Reply with quote  #12 
I agree with Windemere and Ethiomonarchist. As monarchists, we should try to restore the German monarchies within the current international border of Germany. Even though I really hate the current international border of countries across the world especially what is left of Hungary, I think we should leave the matter of conquering territories like Silesia and expelling ethnic population to nationalists and irredentists. For modern Germany, I already have an idea on how to set up the administrative boundary. It should be based on the territorial division of the former German Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia, and there should not be a problem since all the territories Germany had lost in the two world wars all belonged to Prussia. Some changes I propose are: restoration of the Kingdom of Hanover, giving Hesse-Nassau to Hesse, giving the former Prussian province of Saxony back to Saxony, and the unification of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Mecklenburg-Schwerin due to the extinction of the Schwerin line. But, I have no idea what to do with Saxe-Altenburg and the two Schwarzburg principalities. Also, I don't think we should bring back German mediatised principalities like Thurn und Taxis and they are nowadays considered "nobles". With Prussia having lost the extensive German eastern homelands and cities like Danzig and Breslau, I think it would be fair to use a system like that of Malaysia to select a German Emperor with limited term.

kasiac

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thank you for the clear explanation, ReinoTion! I just realized that Kingdom of Hanover could be easily restored, when I was studying the kingdom on the map of the German Empire and comparing it to the present-day boundaries, so Prince Ernest August should not have a problem becoming King of Hanover. As for Mecklenburg-Schewerin, you're right - the rights to its vacant throne are transferred to the House of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, so the Duke Borwin can proclaim himself the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schewerin and Strelitz. Just like the Stuarts succeeded the Tudor dynasty on the English throne following Queen Elizabeth I's death in 1603, uniting the kingdoms of Scotland and England. I will make notes of your idea for my future monarchist organization project.
Windemere

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Reply with quote  #14 
Well, it seems that the modern German provinces (states) of Mecklenburg, Brandenburg, Saxony, Anhalt, Thuringia, Schleswig-Holstein, Neidersachsen, Hesse, Bavaria, and Baden-Wurttemberg all have native royal or ducal families that could fit quite comfortably into the current boundaries, and would be a focus for provincial historic, cultural, and patriotic sentiments

The 3 modern German states which don't have a native royal family are NorthRhine-Westphalia, Rhineland-Palatinate, and Saarland. These provinces were divided between Prussia, Bavaria, and Hesse prior to the fall of the German Empire in 1918. Nevertheless, they did have local noble families ( sometimes mediatized families) who might provide a focus for loyalty to local traditions.

It would be interesting, time permitting, to research what local noble families held possessions in these provinces, under Prussian, Bavarian, or Hessian sovereignty.

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Dis Aliter Visum "Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
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