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Peter

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Reply with quote  #16 
Before I do get to Ireland, and keeping myself safely confined to this genealogical thread, I'll answer a query from KYM that I noticed on an earlier read of the forum. It wasn't addressed to me, but still no one answered it so I will. It was as to whether there is a lineal heir of Harold II.

Since there is known descent from him there has to be, is the reply. It would though be a mammoth task to establish which of his many thousands, in fact probably millions, of descendants is senior, going back to ancient Kiev where his daughter Gytha fled after Hastings. I certainly don't plan to undertake it. It would be pointless anyway, since the English monarchy was elective, it didn't go by primogeniture.

Harold himself had Danish and Swedish royal blood but only a very shaky and frankly probably false claim to English royal descent. Which didn't matter, his election was because he was the greatest, most powerful and most capable noble and the only candidate from the actual royal house was a child. Maybe that child, Edgar Atheling, would in due course have succeeded Harold. Maybe one of Harold's sons would. It is moot, because the actual successor was William the Conqueror.

His descent has remained on the throne ever since, but from his great-grandson Henry II onwards had the blood of the royal House of Wessex. And all the sovereigns from Edward III onwards have been descendants of Harold II as well, he having had it through his mother Isabella of France, so both sides of the Battle of Hastings were at last reconciled in blood.

There is incidentally a traceable senior heir(ess) of the House of Wessex. Groans all round from those who remember me of old, it is Princess Alicia of Parma.
Peter

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Reply with quote  #17 
I'm as tired as everybody else (who has read this far) by now, so I'll skim over Ireland. As everyone knows, Ireland before its conquest from England had numerous petty kingdoms and therefore numerous royal lines, with a High King perched uneasily at the pinnacle and not often exercising any real authority over those parts of the island outside his direct domains. Rather like the ancient Kings of France, maybe given time a genuine central monarchy would have arisen, as happened in France. But time was not given.

Most of the High Kings were of the Ui Niall, or O'Neills. The Queen is most certainly descended from them, including "Red Hugh" O'Neill, 2nd Earl of Tyrone, the distant descendant and claimed inheritor of the Ui Niall High Kings and the most persistent and dangerous opponent of Elizabeth I's rule in Ireland. Perhaps the most famous High King, and certainly among the most powerful, was the great Brian Boru, progenitor of the O'Briens. He was also an ancestor of the Queen. I have already mentioned her descent from Kings of Leinster, and in fact she can count sub-kings of most parts of Ireland and from most of the many royal clans among her ancestors.

As well as claiming ancestry from the Anglo-Norman nobility of Ireland, including "Strongbow", Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke, who started the whole mess and married the King of Leinster's daughter. And the De Burgh line, Earls of Ulster, with a few more besides. Diana, Princess of Wales again introduced more and more recent descents of that kind.

In conclusion, unless the Baron or anyone wants me to amplify some part of this string of posts, the Queen can claim ancestry of royal or high noble as well as common blood from all parts of these isles, Celtic as well as Sassenach. Not too many not themselves of royal or noble blood could say the same. My case rests, and so do I.
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #18 
Thanks.

If you have the time and inclination, a list like that which traced Her Majesty from the English Kings before the conquest that traces the descent from the 'near King of Wales' would be a very good thing for me to have....


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hokay. Line is father to son unless stated or, inconsistently, obvious.

Rhodri Mawr, King of Wales, d.878 (to give a starting point, there will be no more dates)
Anarawd, King of Gwynedd
Idwal, King of Gwynedd
Meurig
Idwal, claimant to be K. of Gwynedd
Iago III, King of Gwynedd
Cynan (married a daughter of the Norse King of Dublin)
Gruffydd, Prince of Gwynedd
Owain, Prince of North Wales
Iorwerth, Prince of Nanconwy
Llewellyn the Great, or Llewellyn Mawr, Prince of Wales
Angharad (daughter), m. Prince Maelgwyn in Deheubarth
Elinor (daughter), m. Prince Maredudd in Deheubarth
Prince Owain in Deheubarth
Prince Llewellyn in Deheubarth
Prince Thomas in Deheubarth
Margred (daughter), m. Sir Tudur Fychan
Maredudd
Sir Owen Tudor
Edmund Tudor, Earl of Richmond
Henry VII of England, Lord of Ireland
Margaret, married James IV of Scots
James V of Scots
Mary I of Scots
James I and VI of England, Scotland and Ireland
Elizabeth, Queen of Bohemia
Sophia, Electress of Hanover
George I of Great Britain and Ireland
George II
Frederick, Prince of Wales
George III
Edward, Duke of Kent
Victoria
Edward VII
George V
George VI
Elizabeth II
Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 

I am a little embarrassed by the way to have written that long series of posts, which were tiring to do, when apparently what the Baron really wanted was something that took me 15 minutes, and that long only because the Welsh spellings are tricky for someone like me who doesn't know the language. So it goes, my fault for not enquiring better as to what exactly was wanted. And it enabled me to get some genealogical discussion, or at any rate oration, off my chest. I am already feeling better for it, it has been frustrating not being here and so not able to talk about these matters at all, whether anyone reads what I wrote or not.

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #21 
Peter,
The 'background' IS what I wanted for me.

The 'list' is for 'banding about' in the 'Celtic Nation' fora.

Kind of like the first go where we talked about the parties, then did the lineage.  Now I know much more of the Scot, Irish, Welsh sides, and have a 'line of descent' confirming Her Majesty's right to bestow the title 'Prince of Wales' on her son...

Thanks for all the work in the larger posts (I learned a lot) AND for the lineage line - it will be a 'easy visual aid' for those who don't know that Her Majesty is by right of proven descent more Welsh than the speaker of the Welsh Assembly, more Irish than the president of Ireland, and more Scot than the mayor of Glasgow.



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Peter

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Reply with quote  #22 

Glad you got something out of all the other posts, Bo. And I hope the lineage helps you with your argument elsewhere.

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #23 
Back to the original topic of this old thread, I'm sure our Roman Catholic members will be pleased to see that Duke Paul has added his support to the restoration of the Institute of Christ the King's beautiful church in St Louis.
BlayneII

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Reply with quote  #24 

His Highness rocks. This is exciting news! More nobility is always a good thing.


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