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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #1 
http://www.institute-christ-king.org/news/71/92/Benefit-Recital-for-Shrine-of-Christ-the-King/

This looks like a pretty special event: royalty, classical music, and the Latin Mass all together!    Wish I could go...

Any members or lurkers in the Chicago area?

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #2 
Because I feel like it, and I wish Peter were still here, and I want people to notice this thread, I'm going to post some of the ancestry of the children of Paul and his wife Maria, which I find rather interesting, especially Maria's descent [through her non-royal father] from the morganatic second marriage of Queen Maria Cristina of Spain (1806-1878).

1a. Duke Kirill of Oldenburg (2002-   )
1b. Duke Carlos of Oldenburg (2004-   )
1c. Duke Paul of Oldenburg (2005-   )
1d. Duchess Maria of Oldenburg (2007-   )

Parents

2. Duke Paul of Oldenburg (1969-   )
3. Maria del Pilar Mendez de Vigo y Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (1970-   )

Grandparents

4. Duke Friedrich of Oldenburg (1936-   )
5. Princess Marie-Cecilie of Prussia (1942-   )
6. Jaime Mendez de Vigo (1933-   )
7. Princess Monika zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (1939-   )

Great-Grandparents


8. Nikolaus, Hereditary Grand Duke of Oldenburg (1897-1970)
9. Princess Helene of Waldeck & Pyrmont (1899-1948)
10. Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (1907-1994)
11. Grand Duchess Kyra Kirillovna of Russia (1909-1967)
12. Manuel Mendez de Vigo y Bernaldo (1892-1938)
13. Maria del Consuelo del Arco y Cubas (1898-19??)
14. Karl, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (1904-1990)
15. Countess Carolina Rignon (1904-1975)

Great-Great-Grandparents

16. Friedrich August, Grand Duke of Oldenburg (1852-1931)
17. Duchess Elisabeth of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1869-1955)
18. Friedrich, Prince of Waldeck & Pyrmont (1865-1946)
19. Princess Bathildis of Schaumburg-Lippe (1873-1962)
20. Crown Prince Wilhelm of Germany (1882-1951)
21. Duchess Cecile of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1886-1954)
22. Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich of Russia (1876-1938)
23. Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha (1876-1936)
24. Manuel Mendez de Vigo (1858-1959)
25. Maria Bernaldo y Munoz (1866-1934)
28. Aloys, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (1871-1952)
29. Countess Josephine von Kinsky (1874-1946)
30. Count Edoardo Rignon (1861-1932)
31. Countess Marie Robilant (1870-1960)

Great-Great-Great-Grandparents

32. Peter II, Grand Duke of Oldenburg (1827-1900)
33. Princess Elisabeth of Saxe-Altenburg (1826-1896)
34. Friedrich Franz II, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1823-1883)
35. Princess Marie zu Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt (1850-1922)
36. Georg Victor, Prince of Waldeck & Pyrmont (1831-1893)
37. Princess Helene of Nassau (1831-1888)
38. Prince Wilhelm of Schaumburg-Lippe (1834-1908)
39. Princess Bathildis of Anhalt (1837-1902)
40. Wilhelm II, German Emperor (1859-1941)
41. Princess Augusta of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (1858-1921)
42. Friedrich Franz III, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1851-1897)
43. Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikhailovna of Russia (1860-1922)
44. Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich of Russia (1847-1909)
45. Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1854-1920)
46. Prince Alfred of Great Britain, Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha (1844-1900)
47. Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia (1853-1920)
50. José Bernaldo (1840-1911)
51. Maria Cristina Munoz y Bourbon (1840-1921) [daughter of Queen Maria Cristina of Spain]
56. Karl, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg (1834-1921)
57. Princess Sophie of Liechtenstein (1837-1899)
58. Count Friedrich Carl von Kinsky (1834-1899)
59. Countess Sophie von Mensdorff-Pouilly (1845-1919)
60. Count Felice Rignon (1829-1914)
61. Luisa [dei conti] Perrone di San Martino (1838-1880)

royalcello

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Reply with quote  #3 
(From here on I will not be attempting to list all known ancestors, concentrating on those lines I find particularly important or interesting.)

Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandparents


64. August, Grand Duke of Oldenburg (1783-1853)
65. Princess Ida von Anhalt-Bernburg-Schaumburg-Hoym (1804-1828)
66. Joseph, Duke of Saxe-Altenburg (1789-1868)
67. Duchess Amalie of Württemberg (1799-1848)
68. Paul Friedrich, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1800-1842)
69. Princess Alexandrine of Prussia (1803-1892)
74. Wilhelm, Duke of Nassau (1792-1839)
75. Princess Pauline of Württemberg (1810-1856)
80. Friedrich III, German Emperor (1831-1888)
81. Princess Victoria of Great Britain (1840-1901)
84. (same as 34)
85. Princess Auguste Reuss (1822-1862)
86. Grand Duke Mikhail Nikolaevich of Russia (1832-1909)
87. Princess Cecilie of Baden (1839-1891)
88. Alexander II, Emperor of Russia (1818-1881)
89. Princess Marie of Hesse (1824-1880)
90. (same as 34)
91. (same as 85)
92. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha (1819-1861)
93. Victoria, Queen of Great Britain and Ireland (1819-1901)
94. (same as 88)
95. (same as 89)
102. Fernando Muñoz y Sanchez, Duque de Rianzaro (1808-1873)
103. Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (1806-1878) [m.(1) King Fernando VII of Spain]

Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandparents


128. Peter I, Duke of Oldenburg (1755-1829)
129. Duchess Friederike of Württemberg (1765-1785)
138. Friedrich Wilhelm III, King of Prussia (1770-1840)
139. Duchess Luise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (1776-1810)
160. Wilhelm I, German Emperor (1797-1888)
161. Princess Augusta of Saxe-Weimar (1811-1890)
162. (same as 92)
163. (same as 93)
168. (same as 68)
169. (same as 69)
172. Nicholas I, Emperor of Russia (1796-1855)
173. Princess Charlotte of Prussia (1798-1860)
176. (same as 172)
177. (same as 173)
180. (same as 68)
181. (same as 69)
186. Prince Edward of Great Britain, Duke of Kent (1767-1820)
187. Princess Victoria of Saxe-Saalfeld-Coburg (1786-1861)
188. (same as 172)
189. (same as 173)
206. Francesco I, King of the Two Sicilies (1777-1830)
207. Princess Maria Isabella of Spain (1789-1848)

BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #4 
Are they really as close kin as it looks like from all the 'same as' entries?

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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #5 
Well, Grand Duke Kirill (#22) and Victoria Melita (#23), who married in 1905, were first cousins (normally prohibited by the Russian Orthodox Church, which is one reason why some people don't accept their granddaughter Maria Vladimirovna); otherwise, most of the other relationships listed are more distant.  But the farther back you go in any royal genealogy (even some non-royal genealogies), the more duplicates you'll find.  Notice that there are none at all until the great-great-great-great-grandparents.  And there is very little common ancestry between Paul and Maria del Pilar, as his ancestry is mostly Protestant (with a little Orthodox) and hers is all Catholic.

Of course, eventually there are duplicates in all family trees.  Since the number of a person's theoretical ancestors doubles with each generation going back, there have to be, or otherwise you would eventually get to a point where he or she would have more ancestors than there were people alive then! 
BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #6 
Yeah, and with the Royals the 'pool' of 'potential parents' is smaller at every step...

So No, they aren't as 'close' as it 'looks' at first glance -


Thanks!


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KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #7 

Duke Paul of Oldenburg is the heir to the throne of Oldenburg, or at least the pretendership to that throne, am I correct?


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royalcello

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Reply with quote  #8 
No, Paul's father Friedrich is a younger brother (sixth of nine children) of the head of the family, Anton Günther (b. 1923).  A full genealogy is here.  The line of succession after Anton Günther to Paul would be:

1. Christian, b. 1953, son of Anton Günther
2. Alexander, b. 1990, son of Christian
3. Philipp, b. 1991, son of Christian
4. Anton, b. 1993, son of Christian
5. Peter, b. 1926, brother of Anton Günther
6. Friedrich, b. 1952, son of Peter
7. Nikolaus, b. 1955, son of Peter
8. Christoph, b. 1985, son of Nikolaus
9. Georg, b. 1990, son of Nikolaus
10. Oskar, b. 1991, son of Nikolaus
11. Georg-Mortiz, b. 1957, son of Peter
12. Egilmar, b. 1934, brother of Anton Günther
13. Friedrich, b. 1936, brother of Anton Günther
14. Paul, b. 1969, son of Friedrich
Peter

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Reply with quote  #9 
I do drop by the forum every day or so, just to see what's happening, and obviously enjoyed this thread, most interesting reading (if you're as weird as me). I thought it couldn't do any harm to offer a few thoughts.

The lines royalcello thought worth following were obviously up to him, but I would have given 41. Princess Augusta of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg a bit more of a trace. She is interesting because while the Danish royal house has very little identifiable Danish ancestry, and that remote in time, she had a good share of actual Danish noble blood. Apparently the heads of that line were encouraged to marry into Danish high nobility in order to tie them more closely to Denmark rather than Germany.

She was also supposedly descended from Christian VII of Denmark and Norway, but that is not very likely, whatever the genealogy shows; her forebear Louise Auguste was almost certainly fathered not by the King but by her mother's lover Count von Struensee, a theory confirmed by the remarkable resemblance between the two in portraits. The present royal line traces from a half-brother of Christian VII, not his putative daughter, who theoretically would have produced the senior line.

Notice that in this set of great-great-great grandparents you get Friedrich Franz II, Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and Friedrich Franz III, ditto. As you might suspect, they were father and son. The disparity of having them in the same generation is because Friedrich Franz II appears with his third wife, whereas Friedrich Franz III was the son of his first, and was already 17 when he acquired a new stepmother. Another generational disparity in the same set is Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, appearing with his nephew Wilhelm II.

There are a couple of links to the Dutch royal family in this set. Nos 36 and 37 were the grandparents of Queen Wilhelmina, and Franz Friedrich II and his third wife were the parents of her consort Hendrik. Another daughter of 36 and 37 married Leopold, Duke of Albany, Queen Victoria's youngest son, and they were the great-grandparents of Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden. Connections everywhere, which is what I like about this sport.

I agree with royalcello that this genealogy is nothing special as inbreeding goes. In fact it is an interestingly varied one even on the paternal side, with perhaps a relatively heavy concentration on a few lines but still a lot of diverse lineages involved. I was wondering who the closest common ancestor of Duke Paul and his wife might be; I would say Louis Rudolph, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (1671-1735). He was the maternal grandfather of Maria Teresa, who in turn was the grandmother of Francis I of the Two Sicilies, father of Ferdinand VII's Queen who remarried to a commoner and was an ancestress of the Duchess.

Another daughter of Louis Rudolph was an ancestress of the Kings of Prussia from Friedrich Wilhelm II on, so there you have it. My first thought was I might have to go back to James I and VI! Then I thought of Maria Teresa and it was plain sailing from there.

Finally, to save posting twice, I noticed over on the monarchy map thread that the Baron was wishing he had my opinion of a purported Palaelogue-Romanov lineage. I would probably have choked, is the answer. As far as is known, no one at all is today descended from Sophie Palaelogue. The last Russian monarch to be so was Feodor I, the son of Ivan the Terrible.
KYMonarchist

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Reply with quote  #10 

Hooray, Peter's back to active posting!


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BaronVonServers

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Reply with quote  #11 
Peter,
Glad to see you back,
Could you put up here the 'Celtic' lineage of Her Majesty?


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thanks, but I don't think it would be wise to return to full participation. If I post on religious or social matters I am sooner or later going to get into another quarrel and have another meltdown, which no one including me would want. Judging by the Abyssinian Empire thread, it would be sooner. If I can confine myself to directly genealogical and historical matters, that should be all right.

Sorry, Baron, I knew I owed you that and kept on not getting round to it. Her Majesty is basically German in ancestry through her father, with a little dash of Hungarian, and basically English through her mother (the Queen Mother was the daughter of a Scottish peer, but from a line that had been marrying Englishwomen for generations; she had more French blood, not much, than Scottish). However, I can trace royal Scottish ancestry through her father, and Scottish, Welsh and Irish ancestry through her mother. Essentially, it would be a list of prominent men and lines identified as "Celtic", mostly selectively cribbed from Royal Highness by Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk.

These would all be people remote in time, though. And though by law Her Majesty is the heiress of for example Kenneth I MacAlpin, uniter of the Picts and Scots, she is not genealogical heir of line. Even the Duke of Bavaria isn't, it's not all down to the Glorious Revolution, the succession has taken numerous twists and turns over the centuries. She is though heiress by decision of the Scottish Estates, in the form of the Claim of Right, which necessarily predated the Act of Union.

So I am not sure if what I can turn up would serve your purpose, which as I understand is to counter the claim of some "Celtic" nationalist who rejects Her Majesty as a foreigner. In blood, although she has "Celtic" royal and noble lineage from all parts, she is. In law, she is rightful sovereign of those parts of the island identified as Celtic as much as those not. In Wales, although she does descend from native Welsh princes, through long-ago conquest; in Scotland, through lawful succession from the ancient and medieval Kings.

Anyway, that's what I can offer. I'll serve it up later today, if work doesn't intervene. The annoying thing is that the Celticness of Scotland, Ireland and Wales is a 19th-century invention. The Ancient Britons didn't think they were Celts, and nor did anyone else. The Celts were a great Continental grouping of tribes whose culture influenced the British and Irish and whose languages were somewhat allied, but that didn't make them all the same people. As modern genetic research has shown, the Welsh, Irish, Scottish and English on the other hand are all essentially the same people, with similar genetic makeup.

The English have something of a Saxon overlay, also Danish in parts, but then parts of Scotland have a considerable (Norwegian) Viking overlay. At root they are all peoples who have more or less been here since the retreat of the Ice, and all native inhabitants of these isles.
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Reply with quote  #13 
Let's start with Scottish Kings and Queens. Her Majesty is descended inter alia from: Kenneth I, Constantine I, Donald II, Malcolm I, Kenneth II, Malcolm II, Duncan I, Malcolm III, David I, Robert I, Robert II, Robert III, James I, James II, James III, James IV, James V, Mary I and James VI. Could your opponent trace and claim the same?

It is worth pointing out that though undoubted Kings and Queens of Scots by no means all of these were entirely of Scots descent, indeed some were only remotely so. Duncan I married an English noblewoman. Their son Malcolm III married first a Norse heiress, then a royal Englishwoman. Their son David I married an Anglo-Norman heiress. Their son Henry married a Norman noblewoman. Their son David married another. Their daughter Isabella married a Scottish-Norman nobleman, Robert le Brus, and was the father of another Robert le Brus, "the contender". He married a Norman noblewoman (with a trace of Irish royal blood, she was a great-great granddaughter of Dermot MacMurrough, the King of Leinster who first invited the Normans in) and fathered a son named, you guessed it, Robert. He at last married an heiress originally of Scottish line, the Countess of Carrick, though not without Anglo-Norman descents.

Their son was the mighty Robert Bruce, King Robert I, justifiably Scotland's greatest national hero. The infusion of a little actual Scottish blood through his mother was timely, then. He reinforced the strain by marrying a daughter of the Earl of Mar (whose mother may have been of Welsh royal blood, though this is not certainly known), and their daughter Marjorie married into the Stewarts, a family of Breton origin and largely Norman descent, albeit long domiciled in Scotland, and produced Robert II.

He (somewhat questionably, the canonicity was long disputed) married a Scottish gentlewoman, and their son Robert III another. So James I was at long last a King of largely Scottish blood. He wasted little time in spoiling this by marrying an English royal lady. Their son James II married a noble lady from what would later be The Netherlands, theirs James III a Danish princess, theirs James IV an English princess, and theirs James V a lady of high French noble blood, indeed quasi-royal.

Their daughter Mary I did marry a Scottish nobleman, albeit with English royal blood in him, so James VI was the first sovereign for five generations to be something approaching half-Scottish. It was never going to last, though, he married a Danish princess.

The point of this lengthy recitation, yes I do have one, is not just to assert but to show that it is irrelevant to decry Her Majesty as a non-native sovereign of Scotland on account of her general ancestry. Irrelevant because exactly the same was true of many of her ancestors who were sovereigns of an independent Scotland, including the architect of Scottish independence, Robert the Bruce. The descent of the Crown is by specific lineage, not general ancestry. And thus it has always been. Her Majesty's claim to descent from all these "native, Celtic" sovereigns is clear and undoubted.
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Reply with quote  #14 
A brief (general sighs of relief) recitation of some of the Scottish noble families from whom Her Majesty traces descent. The Douglases, Black and Red alike. The MacDonalds, Lords of the Isles. The Keiths, Earls Marischal. The Murrays, Dukes of Atholl. The Campbells, Dukes of Argyll. The Hamiltons, Dukes of Hamilton. The Hays, Earls of Erroll. Stewarts galore, Earls and Dukes of you name it. The Comyns, Earls of Buchan. There really are not too many Scottish noble families, extant or extinct, from whom she does not trace descent in one way or another, and of course her mother belonged to one.

In the next generation but one, the ancestry of Diana, Princess of Wales, brings in more and more recent Scottish noble blood, but of course we are speaking of the Queen herself here, not her grandsons.
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Reply with quote  #15 
Another fairly brief one, looking at Welsh rulers from whom the Queen has traceable descent. They are numerous, including rulers of Gwynedd, Powys and Deheubarth as well as more minor princedoms, and include Rhodri Mawr, the one man who had a claim to be called King of all Wales. Llewellyn the Great, generally considered the first Prince of Wales, also ruled almost all the land and was another ancestor of the Queen. Her Majesty is not descended from the second Llewellyn, who was actually granted the title Prince of Wales by Edward I before being overthrown by him, but from an aunt of his.

I could list quite a lot more but it would be pointless as no one would have heard of them, also a risk with those I have mentioned. Just take it that the Queen is descended from more Welsh princes than you can shake a stick at, and an awful lot more than the majority of Welshmen can trace. I think I'll take a break before Ireland, I'm being reminded of why I didn't get round to this before. I hope it will be of at least some use, Baron, and of a little interest to others.
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